I thought the dumpster fire was part of the appeal of epic

That its it's like po

41 minutes ago, Brunas said:

Honestly I think epic might be so broken it'll be hard to nerf just a couple of things.

It could be less broken, or at least broken in favor of traditional game mechanics of firing arcs along side iconic aesthetics.

4 minutes ago, Kaptin Krunch said:

It could be less broken, or at least broken in favor of traditional game mechanics of firing arcs along side iconic aesthetics.

It's true, I'm just not sure what epic is even trying to do.

Epic ships are garbage and ship spam dominates, so games take FOREVER. Do you want to nerf down to the point epic ships see play?

28 minutes ago, Brunas said:

It's true, I'm just not sure what epic is even trying to do.

Epic ships are garbage and ship spam dominates, so games take FOREVER. Do you want to nerf down to the point epic ships see play?

Wonder what would happen if they revised the rules so all small bases only have 1 HP.

Just now, Brunas said:

It's true, I'm just not sure what epic is even trying to do.

Epic ships are garbage and ship spam dominates, so games take FOREVER. Do you want to nerf down to the point epic ships see play?

I'm making a list of cards that have "Limit X per squad" added to them in Epic, alongside cards that get changed in Epic, akin to Biggs and Navigator.

Then, the C-Roc and Thug Droids seems to show that FFG is likely going to use the Team Slot as a source for fixes in the future, so they will likely receive a buff when the mouse gives them a new Huge ship to make- Something from the Han Solo movie most likely. They will also probably do an inverse JumpMaster and give the Red Squadron Pilot an EPT.

At bare minimum, I'd like it if lists that weren't complete cancer to play against with anything even remotely thematic (such as all-deadeye scurrgs with TLTs) weren't possible to do any longer. This might be getting 40k-esque, but maybe a "You must be this fluffy to enter" sign of sorts?

Here's the first draft, V 0.1-

Epic Play Card Restrictions-

The following cards now have limits on the maximum number of copies that can be included in a squadron:

- Crack Shot-6
- Tactician-5
- Juke-4
- Deadeye-4
- Twin Laser Turret-4
- Harpoon Missile-4
- Hyperwave Comm Scanner-4
- Trajectory Simulator-3
- Operations Specialist-3
- Minefield Mapper-3

This section describes restrictions and changes to card text in Epic X-Wing Games:

- Navigator can not be equipped to huge ships
- Zuckuss can not be equipped to huge ships
- Maul can not be equipped to huge ships
- Biggs Darklighter’s pilot ability does not affect huge ships. Small and medium ships may attack huge ships that are at Range 1 of Biggs Darklighter, and huge ships treat Biggs Darklighter’s card text as blank when attacking
- In Epic play, Lieutenant Dormitz's ability reads "During Setup, other friendly ships may be placed anywhere in the play area at range 1 of you."

What did I miss?

1 hour ago, Brunas said:

Epic ships are garbage and ship spam dominates, so games take FOREVER. Do you want to nerf down to the point epic ships see play?

Not entirely true. The CR-90 in a missile boat configuration is consistently one of the best ships in Epic (we see CR-90 missile boats every year at OutRyder Cup). The problem is you have to build it in a particular way and partner it with very specific support ships to make it work. Most people don't figure out the right combo and consequently think the ship sucks (which it does in a suboptimal loadout). I flew the hyperwave TIE/sf cheese last year and the one list that actually beat me was a CR-90 with TLT escort.

You need Ordnance Tubes + three missiles of choice, Harpoon is the obvious choice these days. Then add Weapons Engineer, Finn, and varius teams (Gunnery, Sensor, Ord Exp, Thug Droids). Then you MUST pair it with the following three support ships: Roark, Jan, and Esege. Fill the list out with whatever else you want. The result is a missile platform which fires 3-4 highly accurate attacks a round at PS12. That includes up to 3 Harpoon missile attacks at up to two targets with full mods and a 7 dice range 3-5 turret modified with Focus + TL. 4 base, +1 from ability, +1 from Jan, +1 from Finn. Lemme tell you, nothing feels worse than having a fully healthy Defender get one-shot at range 5.

The Raider, on the other hand, is pure overpriced garbage. Mostly because it doesn't have access to the ridiculous amount of support that Rebels do. It's low floor, low ceiling compared to the CR-90s very low floor, high ceiling. The smaller Epic ships are fine, as they're all meant for support roles. You can always find a use for one at their cost.

12 minutes ago, defkhan1 said:

The Raider, on the other hand, is pure overpriced garbage. Mostly because it doesn't have access to the ridiculous amount of support that Rebels do. It's low floor, low ceiling compared to the CR-90s very low floor, high ceiling. The smaller Epic ships are fine, as they're all meant for support roles. You can always find a use for one at their cost.

But... it's so beautiful...

2 hours ago, Tlfj200 said:

But... it's so beautiful...

You filthy casual

12 hours ago, Tlfj200 said:

But... it's so beautiful...

But… it was so artistically done.

13 hours ago, Tlfj200 said:

But... it's so beautiful...

It's a pretty fun ship to fly and relatively easy to fly too. You just joust things, instead of having to setup to fire broadside like the CR-90. Using Vader on a regenerating platform feels pretty dirty too. And it looks sweet. That's why I think you see it a lot in casual Epic (aka 99% of Epic games). But if you're trying to build a competitive list stay far, far away.

This ****** actually tried to pull a "but muh Krayts"

45 minutes ago, Mattman7306 said:

This ****** actually tried to pull a "but muh Krayts"

We know - it's not worth it.

14 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

We know - it's not worth it.

16 hours ago, defkhan1 said:

The CR-90 in a missile boat configuration is consistently one of the best ships in Epic (we see CR-90 missile boats every year at OutRyder Cup)

Aren't you required to bring epic ships for some teams in outryder?

Yes, the missile boats are definitely the best use of points in an epic ship, but they're still not worth the like hundred points they cost, I'll take 4 gunboats over it every time

4 hours ago, Brunas said:

Aren't you required to bring epic ships for some teams in outryder?

Yes, the missile boats are definitely the best use of points in an epic ship, but they're still not worth the like hundred points they cost, I'll take 4 gunboats over it every time

I'll take you up on that challenge anytime. Seriously, a correctly built and flown CR-90 can stomp most things. I used to be a skeptic too. You have to see it to believe it.

And yes OutRyder requires 8 Epic pts to be spent among the 6 lists in your team. So 3-4 lists per team will have an Epic ship. Even without that requirement I guarantee you would see CR-90 missile boats. What you wouldn't see is the obligatory Gozanti or Transport people sometimes have to shove in to fill the pt requirement.

EDIT: With Wave 11 out I wonder what sort of degeneracy I can come up with by parking Lowhhrick next to a CR-90. Combined with Draw their Fire and Selflessness, he can keep that behemoth alive an extra round or two which can swing games heavily. The problem with Biggs was that he didn't work with Epic ships (thank God). But Lowhhrick does....

23 minutes ago, defkhan1 said:

I'll take you up on that challenge anytime. Seriously, a correctly built and flown CR-90 can stomp most things. I used to be a skeptic too. You have to see it to believe it.

And yes OutRyder requires 8 Epic pts to be spent among the 6 lists in your team. So 3-4 lists per team will have an Epic ship. Even without that requirement I guarantee you would see CR-90 missile boats. What you wouldn't see is the obligatory Gozanti or Transport people sometimes have to shove in to fill the pt requirement.

EDIT: With Wave 11 out I wonder what sort of degeneracy I can come up with by parking Lowhhrick next to a CR-90. Combined with Draw their Fire and Selflessness, he can keep that behemoth alive an extra round or two which can swing games heavily. The problem with Biggs was that he didn't work with Epic ships (thank God). But Lowhhrick does....

It's kinda like when they designed lowrick they just sort of, ignored all thier lessons on biggs, or forgot he exists or something.

51 minutes ago, catachanninja said:

It's kinda like when they designed lowrick they just sort of, ignored all thier lessons on biggs, or forgot he exists or something.

Frank Broooks sits at his desk designing a new rebel ship

Ok, i think rebels need a ship that protects other ships, they don't have that right? I'll just give them a guy that adds an evade result. Hmmm. **touches face, twirls mustache. I feel like theres a reason I'm not supposed to do that. Looks at unopened red core set that sits on his desk. "Come on think Frank, it's a really bigg reason." Thinks more. A **** it, if i can't remember it probabaly doesn't matter. The people will love Lowwrickk.

44 minutes ago, catachanninja said:

Frank Broooks sits at his desk designing a new rebel ship

Ok, i think rebels need a ship that protects other ships, they don't have that right? I'll just give them a guy that adds an evade result. Hmmm. **touches face, twirls mustache. I feel like theres a reason I'm not supposed to do that. Looks at unopened red core set that sits on his desk. "Come on think Frank, it's a really bigg reason." Thinks more. A **** it, if i can't remember it probabaly doesn't matter. The people will love Lowwrickk.

Maybe it's a false flag attack. Frank looooooves Imperial Aces, but was sick of people constantly complaining about them, and he hated all the tech that was against them. So he designs Lowhhrick, and is like, "by the time I'm done, they'll hate Rebels so much that they'll be clamoring for Fel and the Inquisitor and forget all about Palp-aces. I will then ram through the biggest pile of nerfs on anti-ace tech this game has ever seen!"

Maybe Frank goes for the long play.

3 hours ago, defkhan1 said:

I'll take you up on that challenge anytime. Seriously, a correctly built and flown CR-90 can stomp most things. I used to be a skeptic too. You have to see it to believe it.

And yes OutRyder requires 8 Epic pts to be spent among the 6 lists in your team. So 3-4 lists per team will have an Epic ship. Even without that requirement I guarantee you would see CR-90 missile boats. What you wouldn't see is the obligatory Gozanti or Transport people sometimes have to shove in to fill the pt requirement.

EDIT: With Wave 11 out I wonder what sort of degeneracy I can come up with by parking Lowhhrick next to a CR-90. Combined with Draw their Fire and Selflessness, he can keep that behemoth alive an extra round or two which can swing games heavily. The problem with Biggs was that he didn't work with Epic ships (thank God). But Lowhhrick does....

I'm not super familiar with the current epic stupidity - is this about what the CR90s look like?

I see that and all it makes me want instead is spam deadeye Rho's with harpoons crippling the fore in the first turn of shooting, through any kind of selflessness dtf low shenanigans you could ever want...

Actually it makes me want Captain Kagi to prepare his shuttle, but that's a different story. I always want Captain Kagi, best pilot in the galaxy.

27 minutes ago, Brunas said:

I'm not super familiar with the current epic stupidity - is this about what the CR90s look like?

CR90 Corvette (Aft) — CR90 Corvette (Aft)	40
Weapons Engineer	3
Harpoon Missiles	4
Ordnance Tubes	5
Ship Total: 52
CR90 Corvette (Fore) — CR90 Corvette (Fore)	50
Maul	3
Harpoon Missiles	4
Harpoon Missiles	4
Gunnery Team	4
IG-RM Thug Droids	1
Ordnance Tubes	5
Ship Total: 71

I see that and all it makes me want instead is spam deadeye Rho's with harpoons crippling the fore in the first turn of shooting, through any kind of selflessness dtf low shenanigans you could ever want...

Actually it makes me want Captain Kagi to prepare his shuttle, but that's a different story. I always want Captain Kagi, best pilot in the galaxy.

Need Ion Torps on the front section. Range control is key. Supercharged Cells as well. You don't need Tubes on both sections, it just has to be added due to listbuilding site restrictions. It still can only have 1 mod. Want Ordnance Team as well. There's some other stuff you want too (alongside your support ships) but I can't recall them at the moment.

47 minutes ago, Brunas said:

I'm not super familiar with the current epic stupidity - is this about what the CR90s look like?

CR90 Corvette (Aft) — CR90 Corvette (Aft)	40
Weapons Engineer	3
Harpoon Missiles	4
Ordnance Tubes	5
Ship Total: 52
CR90 Corvette (Fore) — CR90 Corvette (Fore)	50
Maul	3
Harpoon Missiles	4
Harpoon Missiles	4
Gunnery Team	4
IG-RM Thug Droids	1
Ordnance Tubes	5
Ship Total: 71

I see that and all it makes me want instead is spam deadeye Rho's with harpoons crippling the fore in the first turn of shooting, through any kind of selflessness dtf low shenanigans you could ever want...

Actually it makes me want Captain Kagi to prepare his shuttle, but that's a different story. I always want Captain Kagi, best pilot in the galaxy.

You also need Sensor Team for R5 TLs. And Finn and Ordnance Experts are desirable.

And of course you can't look at the CR-90 in a vacuum. It's garbage without the exact combination of support: Roark, Jan, and Esege. And WE will get around Kagi to some extent, though you rarely see Kagi in Epic lists anymore because Deadeye exists.

But yeah you're basically going for 11 Harpoon Rhos? That'll beat a CR-90 list almost for sure. Depending on the approach I likely cripple or destroy one at range 5 before you're in Harpoon range. Then I could PS kill two more in the first engagement, leaving 8 boats to fire. If you get them all in range and arc of the CR-90's fore then yeah it's toast. The CR-90 (with DtF and Selflessness) can probably tank 5 missiles without being crippled. A 6th will almost certainly cripple it. Which leaves two more for the support ships and aft until you have to turn and reload. The TLTs will do quite a bit of work but probably not enough to turn the tide? It's hard to say. On the other hand if you don't cripple the fore in the first engage I probably win. Epic games tend to snowball like that.

Interestingly you dont see a whole lot of low PS alpha like your 11 Gunboats anymore. Why? Because high PS alpha beats it pretty easily. PS killing things is a huge deal in Epic because the effect cascades when your entire list out-PS's your opponent. It's pretty typical to see PS 5-7 these days, and consequently that means less room for ships. Which means the CR-90 has a better chance of surviving the alpha against those lists. I admit it's a bit silly to analyze a non-existent Epic meta, but its relevant (and fun!) in a format like OutRyder.

tl;dr fite me bro. Bring the Krayts to the next OutRyder Cup!

14 minutes ago, defkhan1 said:

You also need Sensor Team for R5 TLs. And Finn and Ordnance Experts are desirable.

And of course you can't look at the CR-90 in a vacuum. It's garbage without the exact combination of support: Roark, Jan, and Esege. And WE will get around Kagi to some extent, though you rarely see Kagi in Epic lists anymore because Deadeye exists.

But yeah you're basically going for 11 Harpoon Rhos? That'll beat a CR-90 list almost for sure. Depending on the approach I likely cripple or destroy one at range 5 before you're in Harpoon range. Then I could PS kill two more in the first engagement, leaving 8 boats to fire. If you get them all in range and arc of the CR-90's fore then yeah it's toast. The CR-90 (with DtF and Selflessness) can probably tank 5 missiles without being crippled. A 6th will almost certainly cripple it. Which leaves two more for the support ships and aft until you have to turn and reload. The TLTs will do quite a bit of work but probably not enough to turn the tide? It's hard to say. On the other hand if you don't cripple the fore in the first engage I probably win. Epic games tend to snowball like that.

Interestingly you dont see a whole lot of low PS alpha like your 11 Gunboats anymore. Why? Because high PS alpha beats it pretty easily. PS killing things is a huge deal in Epic because the effect cascades when your entire list out-PS's your opponent. It's pretty typical to see PS 5-7 these days, and consequently that means less room for ships. Which means the CR-90 has a better chance of surviving the alpha against those lists. I admit it's a bit silly to analyze a non-existent Epic meta, but its relevant (and fun!) in a format like OutRyder.

tl;dr fite me bro. Bring the Krayts to the next OutRyder Cup!

Well, I don't go the Finn Route, he's ok. With Maul you don't need Sensor Team. Jan is nice if you can find the space, but Roark and Esege are neccessary.

Also sorry for the digressions. I'm stuck in O'hare on New Years Eve with nothing to do.

43 minutes ago, defkhan1 said:

Also sorry for the digressions. I'm stuck in O'hare on New Years Eve with nothing to do.

I'm at home with a sick two year old and that still sounds more fun than what you're doing.

1 hour ago, defkhan1 said:

Also sorry for the digressions. I'm stuck in O'hare on New Years Eve with nothing to do.

25 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

I'm at home with a sick two year old and that still sounds more fun than what you're doing.

Yep, also at home taking care of sick and all I have to say is

I AGREE