6 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

I'd suggest that if want to run Kykov you don't think you can make SNR work, spend time to try and get better with SNR. I think that he's awfully expensive for a ship that's not super tough, and I expect against most solid opponents, Hate isn't going to get the job done.

I was hoping for some aspiration in the reader there, and maybe some shade at Stay On Target and the Barons. Im convinced Supernatural or don’t bring Kylo, but more people (without a lot of practice) are probably in the latter camp?

I listened to listener four again and I’m pretty sure I am not currently patient enough to run SuperKylo (not to the extent that Travis shouldn’t have run double rebel regen, but close).

I expect the extent that non SNR Kylo works leans heavily on how good double modded Proton Torps are.

3 hours ago, AEIllingworth said:

I was hoping for some aspiration in the reader there, and maybe some shade at Stay On Target and the Barons. Im convinced Supernatural or don’t bring Kylo, but more people (without a lot of practice) are probably in the latter camp?

I listened to listener four again and I’m pretty sure I am not currently patient enough to run SuperKylo (not to the extent that Travis shouldn’t have run double rebel regen, but close).

I like the barons. They're the only podcast that discusses and disputes what the krayts say instead of poorly regurgitating their ideas a week or two later.

They've got some good points with kylo (pricing, wingmates) but I think the conclusion isn't 'if SNR kylo gets meta'd out run hate kylo,' but rather run a different ship.

It would be pretty funny if after all the debate about Super Kylo this happened:

Warning: Fake News

Don't see SNR being banned with Jedi around the corner.

I'm saying this not optimistically but just realistically. SNR isn't tearing up the meta and I doubt FFG is gonna go beyond that when making their decisions for pricing.

8 minutes ago, impspy said:

Don't see SNR being banned with Jedi around the corner.

I'm saying this not optimistically but just realistically. SNR isn't tearing up the meta and I doubt FFG is gonna go beyond that when making their decisions for pricing.

Unlikely it will get removed from Hyperspace true.

But I do still genuinely feel like FFG is going to address it in some significant way for reasons unrelated to meta statistics.

Jedi might be a reason to address it, rather than a reason not to.

Is there a world where Kylo/Vader go down by X, and supernatural goes up by Y, and running them naked (or with Hate or whatever) is an option, and both options are viable?

If so, where does that world lie? What's 72 point Kylo, 60 point Vader, 22 point Supernatural like? What about the same, but 32 point SR?

Or is Supernatural the slot-killer, and you can't make one viable with the other being either way too cheap or way too expensive?

3 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

Unlikely it will get removed from Hyperspace true.

But I do still genuinely feel like FFG is going to address it in some significant way for reasons unrelated to meta statistics.

Jedi are a reason to address it, not a reason not to.

I think we're talking about 2 different things: balance and "fun factor" for lack of a better term.

Currently, what does SNR do? Its a mistake on Low init Force Users, so lets assume its just being run on Vader, Luke, and Kylo.

Vader pilot in 2.0 has been a massive disappointment.

Luke is dragged down by the rest of the Rebel faction.

Kylo just dropped and is "untested."

No one is winning anything with SNR. I'm not arguing that its not NPE here, just that FFG probably doesn't care; they're not gonna ban a card they specifically designed to give Force Users an edge if its not oppressively meta imho.

Now once the Jedi drop and we see how they work with it there will probably be a better argument for banning it.

6 minutes ago, impspy said:

No one is winning anything with SNR. I'm not arguing that its not NPE here, just that FFG probably doesn't care; they're not gonna ban a card they specifically designed to give Force Users an edge if its not oppressively meta imho.

Now once the Jedi drop and we see how they work with it there will probably be a better argument for banning it.

The other way of looking at it is that a lot of people aren't happy with the design as-is, and that's before the number of pilots that can take it doubles.

3 minutes ago, svelok said:

The other way of looking at it is that a lot of people aren't happy with the design as-is, and that's before the number of pilots that can take it doubles.

Yeah, there's a very vocal group that hates it and wants it banned. I'm not disputing that.

The whole crux of my argument is "its not winning, so FFG won't ban it." I'm not making a value call on it, I'm not disputing the unhappiness with it, I'm simply trying to make a case that the meta is what will drive FFG to price things and without a good meta argument as to why SNR should be banned/massively increased in points I highly doubt it will happen.

10 minutes ago, impspy said:

I think we're talking about 2 different things: balance and "fun factor" for lack of a better term.

Currently, what does SNR do? Its a mistake on Low init Force Users, so lets assume its just being run on Vader, Luke, and Kylo.

Vader pilot in 2.0 has been a massive disappointment.

Luke is dragged down by the rest of the Rebel faction.

Kylo just dropped and is "untested."

No one is winning anything with SNR. I'm not arguing that its not NPE here, just that FFG probably doesn't care; they're not gonna ban a card they specifically designed to give Force Users an edge if its not oppressively meta imho.

Now once the Jedi drop and we see how they work with it there will probably be a better argument for banning it.

so... if SNR becomes oppressive and unfun, and wins a lot (jsut making cut, let's not limit ourselves to tournament 1st only), but it's PAST January and the next points update is Summer...

...

...

Suck it down?

2 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

so... if SNR becomes oppressive and unfun, and wins a lot (jsut making cut, let's not limit ourselves to tournament 1st only), but it's PAST January and the next points update is Summer...

...

...

Suck it down?

Basically? FFG seems more reactive than proactive.

Also, to be clear, SNR has "not performed well" in a massively unbalanced [points-wise] extended format.

Like, the lessons we learned was:
1) Token stacks are good
2) Passive mods are good
3) Proton torpedoes are good

Also, we all want those things points-adjusted upwards (well, I suspect most of us do).

I mean, just because SNR didn't perform well in the beta test doesn't mean there's no a problem, right?

4 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

Also, to be clear, SNR has "not performed well" in a massively unbalanced [points-wise] extended format.

Like, the lessons we learned was:
1) Token stacks are good
2) Passive mods are good
3) Proton torpedoes are good

Also, we all want those things points-adjusted upwards (well, I suspect most of us do).

I mean, just because SNR didn't perform well in the beta test doesn't mean there's no a problem, right?

I am not saying that it isn't a problem; that's a different argument.

I'm saying:

A) A good case as to why it should be banned or scaled up has not been made at the meta level.

B) Because of "A" SNR will remain unchanged until/unless Kylo and/or the Jedi break it wide open.

1 minute ago, impspy said:

I am not saying that it isn't a problem; that's a different argument.

I'm saying:

A) A good case as to why it should be banned or scaled up has not been made at the meta level.

B) Because of "A" SNR will remain unchanged until/unless Kylo and/or the Jedi break it wide open.

Ah, so you're making an assumption of how FFG will go about viewing and balancing?

I hope that is not how they do it, since the previous meta, and the hyperspace meta, are pretty apples and oranges

25 minutes ago, svelok said:

Is there a world where Kylo/Vader go down by X, and supernatural goes up by Y, and running them naked (or with Hate or whatever) is an option, and both options are viable?

If so, where does that world lie? What's 72 point Kylo, 60 point Vader, 22 point Supernatural like? What about the same, but 32 point SR?

Or is Supernatural the slot-killer, and you can't make one viable with the other being either way too cheap or way too expensive?

To this: I think so, yeah.

Like, let's say I got my way and SNR goes up to at least 30 points at i5 (I'd prefer 35).

Assuming they also drop the cost of Vader and Kylo (maaaaybe Luke? less sure there), I think they're playable, yeah. Force tokens are good.

Just now, Tlfj200 said:

To this: I think so, yeah.

Like, let's say I got my way and SNR goes up to at least 30 points at i5 (I'd prefer 35).

Assuming they also drop the cost of Vader and Kylo (maaaaybe Luke? less sure there), I think they're playable, yeah. Force tokens are good.

That seems fair; the problem with scaling up SNR is that Vader , Luke and Kylo need to drop in points (Vader much more so because even with SNR he's not that good, Luke less so as you said cause he's still a double modded PT carrier) the Force is a good ability. Not worth `+-100 points without SNR, mind you, but valuable.

10 minutes ago, impspy said:

Basically? FFG seems more reactive than proactive.

Dash with small base BR: nerfed before release.

Triple tact yv666: nerfed before release.

Biohexcrypt: banned from hyperspace

There should be other examples. But they have demonstrated a willingness to preempt NPE before it arises.

The problem is the developers are on record as thinking the preposition rolls aren't like prenerf phantoms because it's a 1 not a 2 template.

Price changes are great for balance but it also keeps me on edge wondering when they'll "shake up the meta" by dropping the cost of SNR.

6 minutes ago, jagsba said:

The problem is the developers are on record as thinking the preposition rolls aren't like prenerf phantoms because it's a 1 not a 2 template.

Price changes are great for balance but it also keeps me on edge wondering when they'll "shake up the meta" by dropping the cost of SNR.

Yeah that's my whole point. SNR was designed/released initially with 2.0; it wasn't the result of feature creep that Dash and Tactical represent.

At the risk of sounding stupid, its not gonna be a problem for FFG unless it becomes a problem.

Finally, and I know y'all hate this, but the theme is important to them. FFG wants the Iconic Force Users to be good and set apart from the other pilots; SNR is a relatively easy way, paired with the tokens, to let them be that.

53 minutes ago, jagsba said:

I like the barons. They're the only podcast that discussed and disputes what the krayts say instead of poorly regurgitating their ideas a week or two later.

They've got some good points with kylo (pricing, wingmates) but I think the conclusion isn't if SNR kylo gets meta'd out run hate kylo but rather run a different ship.

Absolutely, if SNR Kylo can't cut it, the answer isn't Hate.

2 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

Absolutely, if SNR Kylo can't cut it, the answer isn't Hate.

Yep, there's super kylo and first order redline. If those don't work out, don't bother with kylo.

1 hour ago, AEIllingworth said:

I’m going to say supernatural is the best force option if you are really really good, but hate might be better if you are decent to bad.

Im not sure where the line is, but if you ever set up to trade shots probably not supernatural.

Thank you for the response. This actually is very useful information, especially for the different ways people engage with Kylo.

1 hour ago, Biophysical said:

I'd suggest that if want to run Kykov you don't think you can make SNR work, spend time to try and get better with SNR. I think that he's awfully expensive for a ship that's not super tough, and I expect against most solid opponents, Hate isn't going to get the job done.

These are my thoughts as well. Practice, practice, practice. I love the ability to pre-maneuver reposition then she’d stress immediately. Makes Kylo very fun to play.

1 hour ago, jagsba said:

The line for using supernatural is having a functioning brain stem.

Well. I have a functioning brain. So I’ve crossed a major threshold.

Thank you for all the discourse and discussion.

46 minutes ago, impspy said:

No one is winning anything with SNR. I'm not arguing that its not NPE here, just that FFG probably doesn't care; they're not gonna ban a card they specifically designed to give Force Users an edge if its not oppressively meta imho.

Now once the Jedi drop and we see how they work with it there will probably be a better argument for banning it.

So if SNR becomes an issue with the release of Wave 3, do you think the balance would be to limit it to one per list?

29 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

Like, let's say I got my way and SNR goes up to at least 30 points at i5 (I'd prefer 35).

Assuming they also drop the cost of Vader and Kylo (maaaaybe Luke? less sure there), I think they're playable, yeah. Force tokens are good.

The Luke example is why I'm unsure. Here's my doubts:

Right now, Super Vader is 82 points. With 35 point SR, that spikes to 105. Obviously Vader would come down at the same time - but Super Vader is already not performing currently at 82. So even if we peg new Super Vader at a price point where we know it doesn't perform, if SR goes up to 35, it would mean making base Vader 47 points. Is Vader really a 47 point pilot? I mean, maybe? But I don't think he is? And that's at a level we already know struggles.

Then the obvious response is to make I6 Super cheaper than I5 Super, since it's the future now and that's a thing FFG can do. But the same example can happen at I5.

Super Luke and Super Kylo are considered good, and they're 74/94 points, respectively. If I5 Super goes up to 35, keeping Super Luke/Kylo as good as they currently are would mean making naked Luke/Kylo 39/59 points. Are those levels right? Surely not?

And it gets harder with wave 3, since even more obvious solutions get harder, like making SR a bit cheaper than 35 and putting some of the difference onto Kylo's frequently-used Primed Thrusters.

Maybe I'm a bit biased, because I have a strong design preference (nuke SR from orbit and make the pilots viably-costed for the other options or nothing instead), but it seems really, really hard. I feel like they should have given S-Foils a setup rule to equip in the open position so they could scale SR cost by action bar (boost/roll/both).

5 minutes ago, svelok said:

The Luke example is why I'm unsure. Here's my doubts:

Right now, Super Vader is 82 points. With 35 point SR, that spikes to 105. Obviously Vader would come down at the same time - but Super Vader is already not performing currently at 82. So even if we peg new Super Vader at a price point where we know it doesn't perform, if SR goes up to 35, it would mean making base Vader 47 points. Is Vader really a 47 point pilot? I mean, maybe? But I don't think he is? And that's at a level we already know struggles.

Then the obvious response is to make I6 Super cheaper than I5 Super, since it's the future now and that's a thing FFG can do. But the same example can happen at I5.

Super Luke and Super Kylo are considered good, and they're 74/94 points, respectively. If I5 Super goes up to 35, keeping Super Luke/Kylo as good as they currently are would mean making naked Luke/Kylo 39/59 points. Are those levels right? Surely not?

And it gets harder with wave 3, since even more obvious solutions get harder, like making SR a bit cheaper than 35 and putting some of the difference onto Kylo's frequently-used Primed Thrusters.

Maybe I'm a bit biased, because I have a strong design preference (nuke SR from orbit and make the pilots viably-costed for the other options or nothing instead), but it seems really, really hard. I feel like they should have given S-Foils a setup rule to equip in the open position so they could scale SR cost by action bar (boost/roll/both).

If you were nuking SR from orbit, you don't knock Vader down to 47 or whatever. You nuke it to where naked Vader is playable.