4 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

On top of that, I think we as players reflexively equate word and card count with power. So it seems like some zero or 1 upgrade ship is bad, even though it's still slinging 3 attack dice, and for a much cheaper cost than an upgraded ace.

Most people also seem to assume that the main combos are "upgrade" combos.

Where in 2.0 it seems like there are many more ways to combo ships into a solid list now that ship abilities are a thing.

8 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

The common answer is that more ships = harder to coordinate them all.

I expect the true answer is that people have fun with upgrades. They feel powerful and interesting. They like the card game combination aspect of upgrades. They also like having more information in decision making. This all leads to 2-3 ship lists for the fun of high initiative, interesting/fun card pilot abilities, and card combos.

I feel like if you put enough time and effort into playing more 4+ ship lists that aren't meant to fly in formation, you'll become an overall better player. I do agree it's "harder" to play with more ships, but I don't think it's as hard as people make it out to be. To some degree it has a "weighted clothing" effect IF you go back to flying high initiative ships. Plus if you get out bid when using ace ships, you have a better idea of what to do anyway in that situation from experiences with lower initiative ships.

2 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

Most people also seem to assume that the main combos are "upgrade" combos.

Where in 2.0 it seems like there are many more ways to combo ships into a solid list now that ship abilities are a thing. 

15 red dice and 5 crack shots seems pretty good.

2 minutes ago, RStan said:

I feel like if you put enough time and effort into playing more 4+ ship lists that aren't meant to fly in formation, you'll become an overall better player. I do agree it's "harder" to play with more ships, but I don't think it's as hard as people make it out to be. To some degree it has a "weighted clothing" effect IF you go back to flying high initiative ships. Plus if you get out bid when using ace ships, you have a better idea of what to do anyway in that situation from experiences with lower initiative ships.

Lets be honest though most of those no formation lists just joust fancy.

Just now, Boom Owl said:

Lets be honest though most of those no formation lists just joust fancy.

True, but as long as their not wrong in jousting anyway, they can be as fancy as they want.

6 minutes ago, viedit said:

15 red dice and 5 crack shots seems pretty good.

add prockets for burst damage and then complete the pick offs with crack. It's a good thing.

5 minutes ago, Wiredin said:

It's a good thing.

MARTHA!

It's also the attritional factor. We all learned a long time ago that a 1 hull Whisper almost as dangerous as a full HP one. Whereas when you lose one of your 4 ships your lists firepower just dropped dramatically. More than 25% in fact since so much of the offense is predicated on spreading arcs and focus firing through defenses. 2 ships shooting at a focus + evade ace isn't twice the expected damage it's over 5x.

Now maybe generics are efficient enough to overcome that in 2.0, but those lessons are super ingrained from 1.0. I'm honestly not sure what the actual answer is but my sense is that without a further factor like Sloane or Quads the answer is still no.

2 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

MARTHA!

WHY DID YOU SAY THAT NAME!?

Just flip the table.

29 minutes ago, viedit said:

I've just got roughly 50 games of Second Edition under my belt and am firmly under the belief that if you cast a wide enough net and toss enough red dice at something, it eventually dies.

Again....okay? All I've been trying to say is that Vader is really good and to suggest that he's Wedge level in performance percentages is only because Vader isn't being played very skillfully, but that he could be played more skillfully to improve those percentages.

I mean, if we're epeening, I have at least that many games of Second Edition under my belt and am firmly under the belief that if I play a good list which fits my playstyle well, I'm not going to lose to anyone. Many people probably feel that way.

5 minutes ago, gennataos said:

Again....okay? All I've been trying to say is that Vader is really good and to suggest that he's Wedge level in performance percentages is only because Vader isn't being played very skillfully, but that he could be played more skillfully to improve those percentages.

I mean, if we're epeening, I have at least that many games of Second Edition under my belt and am firmly under the belief that if I play a good list which fits my playstyle well, I'm not going to lose to anyone. Many people probably feel that way.

And all I'm trying to say is that in a one on one situation I totally agree. Vader is an absolute monster. But he's not played in a vacuum and consumes a very large part of a list. Due to his cost and the now mortal nature of aces he's a lot harder to build around. High ship count lists can give him a very hard time. Skill can only take you so far when you've got such a tight number of points to build around him and risk facing hard counters in the way of 4+ ship lists. He's not like 1.0 Soontir or Quiz that can turtle up and take a nap at range 3. He's now vulnerable to even a 2 dice attack there. Skill can only compensate so much for a chassis that is still vulnerable to damage and consumes such a heavy part of your list.

1 minute ago, viedit said:

And all I'm trying to say is that in a one on one situation I totally agree. Vader is an absolute monster. But he's not played in a vacuum and consumes a very large part of a list. Due to his cost and the now mortal nature of aces he's a lot harder to build around. High ship count lists can give him a very hard time. Skill can only take you so far when you've got such a tight number of points to build around him and risk facing hard counters in the way of 4+ ship lists. He's not like 1.0 Soontir or Quiz that can turtle up and take a nap at range 3. He's now vulnerable to even a 2 dice attack there. Skill can only compensate so much for a chassis that is still vulnerable to damage and consumes such a heavy part of your list.

Ah, this is our disconnect. I don't believe you.

If dodging hard counters in swiss is a skill then we'll fist bump and brohug it out.

1 minute ago, viedit said:

If dodging hard counters in swiss is a skill then we'll fist bump and brohug it out.

Are you suggesting that everyone quit playing him because other people will bring 4+ ships? That 4+ is somehow a silver bullet for Vader?

6 minutes ago, gennataos said:

Are you suggesting that everyone quit playing him because other people will bring 4+ ships? That 4+ is somehow a silver bullet for Vader? 

I'm suggesting that about as much as you are giving the person across the table from you any credit. You both have win conditions. The higher ship count lists can make Vader's harder to achieve.

anyone else trying Rebel Han? Lando R2D2 crew? seems like he lives longer than he should. now only if I could figure out how to fly the hunk of junk....because I'm bad at the day

1 minute ago, Wiredin said:

anyone else trying Rebel Han? Lando R2D2 crew? seems like he lives longer than he should. now only if I could figure out how to fly the hunk of junk....because I'm bad at the day

Lando crew is a riot. Especially with that Han reroll. Why even take the title at that point. Lando is cheaper.

1 minute ago, Wiredin said:

anyone else trying Rebel Han? Lando R2D2 crew? seems like he lives longer than he should. now only if I could figure out how to fly the hunk of junk....because I'm bad at the day

I've tried it, and there's definitely something there with at least R2D2 crew and if points available Lando crew too. I agree with @viedit that you really don't need the title if you already have Han reroll and Lando crew. A sneaky upgrade that works really well on R2D2 Han is also Inertial Dampeners. With R2D2 crew getting that shield back for it if you need to use it and Han at i6, he might be the best user of Dampeners next to maybe UWings.

1 minute ago, RStan said:

I've tried it, and there's definitely something there with at least R2D2 crew and if points available Lando crew too. I agree with @viedit that you really don't need the title if you already have Han reroll and Lando crew. A sneaky upgrade that works really well on R2D2 Han is also Inertial Dampeners. With R2D2 crew getting that shield back for it if you need to use it and Han at i6, he might be the best user of Dampeners next to maybe UWings.

haha thats a cute trick. I like it.

47 minutes ago, viedit said:

I'm suggesting that about as much as you are giving the person across the table from you any credit. You both have win conditions. The higher ship count lists can make Vader's harder to achieve.

It's true...in an effort to give my side of a discussion proper credit, I do probably not give enough credit to the other side.

#vaderstillbetterthanwedge!

59 minutes ago, Wiredin said:

anyone else trying Rebel Han? Lando R2D2 crew? seems like he lives longer than he should. now only if I could figure out how to fly the hunk of junk....because I'm bad at the day

I’ve settled on 109 pt Han with Trickshot/Kanan/Jyn. Equivalent of 54 first edition points and brings a lot for that. Han’s rerolls means he doesn’t need the title, Jyn is cheapest way to get an evade, and at 109 points you can fill the rest of the list with whatever flavor of Luke you like. R2-D2 is good, but it can’t replace Kanan’s crew spot and it means it’s taking Jyn’s, which then means only way to get an evade is the title, and now Han’s starting to not be worth his points.

Fun game, take discussions in this sub forum, swap wedge and vader, and laugh at how similar the apologists on both sides sound.

9 hours ago, Kaptin Krunch said:

Dr. Erso? I'm ISB.

Perhaps he’s wondering why you would shoot a man and then pick his damage card.

2 hours ago, RStan said:

I've tried it, and there's definitely something there with at least R2D2 crew and if points available Lando crew too. I agree with @viedit that you really don't need the title if you already have Han reroll and Lando crew. A sneaky upgrade that works really well on R2D2 Han is also Inertial Dampeners. With R2D2 crew getting that shield back for it if you need to use it and Han at i6, he might be the best user of Dampeners next to maybe UWings.

The problem with Lando is that if you choose to reroll one of those evade dice from his action, you have to reroll them both due to the wording of Hans ability.

The title costs one point more than Lando, but will definitely always give a single evade token when you use the action. The extra title reroll in addition to the possible Han reroll on every defensive roll really makes the single evade token last longer in my experience. Maybe the best point is that it eats an otherwise useless slot instead of one of the crew seats.

The value of Lando really seems to be the possibility of rolling two useful results. The fact that they both have to come up in a single roll of two defense dice makes it something that I don't want to count on against a competent opponent though. The most common outcome seems to be that you will use your action to get a single focus or evade token. Worse, in my opinion, than just taking the action I wanted in the first place.

Lando is obviously solidly better when you do get two usable results in a roll of two green dice. The title is probably a little more reliable defensively due to always getting the evade when you want it and the additional reroll making it go farther against multiple attacks in the same round. If anyone wants to do all the probabilities for this I would be very thankful.

R2-D2 is amazing durability on Han, and I wouldn't ever consider playing it in its current state without that little Droid. He seems custom designed for Han in the Falcon unless someone else can reroll the R2-D2 crew die.

Kanan is attractive for either parking in debris or opening up the nerfed dial a bit. (even if comparing him to the Vader crew at the exact same price point annoys me). I wouldn't say he's a must, but I usually include him.

I hadn't considered inertial dampeners, but that would also be amazing when combined with Kanan and R2-D2. Might make staying at range 1 of an obstacle easier at times, even though I will admit that it's pretty easy for a large base anyway. It can also really catch people off guard sometimes and I find myself using it all the time on 4-LOM at least.

To be clear though, I would never choose to play any of this in a game I really wanted to win. The Falcon is my favorite ship by a lot, but there are just much more competitive options for a player that isn't locked into one faction. The offensive output of any list with this Falcon will suffer badly from spending so much on one large 3 die attack. Maybe if the ship had better wingmates available at a more reasonable price it could be great.