6 minutes ago, RStan said:

Dang....#1 scum crew for now? Partner with Perceptive Copilot if the YT1300 scum gets 2 crew. I mean just Lando crew alone gets so much mileage from a focus token.

Yeah, Lando + Perceptive Copilot seems super good, but he could be pretty expensive, and is at least action dependent. Party Bus 2.0!

Article confirmed it has 2 crew slots. I was thinking that calculate tokens are green, easier to get in multiples and can get passed out by IG88A too...

This could be sneaky good too. This isn't locked onto being on a YT1300 so looking at ships that could benefit from more blue banks and not a ton a shields that could be stressed are Scum HWKs with linked actions. It might not be the #1 crew choice when you only have 1 crew slot for ships like Lancer (maximum blue dial) and G1A (more options after plenty of red maneuvers), but even YV666 at 2+ crew slots could have a good use for it. Even outside the decreased dial difficulty when not shielded, the one time "oh ****" button on the attacking dice is solid.

"must reroll all of his attack dice"

Does the standard "1 reroll per die" that is explicitly overridden by Han apply? If not, strange that it isn't explicitly mentioned here. If so, we have to carefully track which red dice are rerolled and which aren't.

5 minutes ago, sirjorj said:

"must reroll all of his attack dice"

Does the standard "1 reroll per die" that is explicitly overridden by Han apply? If not, strange that it isn't explicitly mentioned here. If so, we have to carefully track which red dice are rerolled and which aren't.

since defender modifies attack dice before attacker, I don't think that'll be a problem.

But even in 1.0, yes, you needed to track which dice had been rerolled and/or couldn't be rerolled (Predator/Han, Sensor Jammer, Palp/FOVanguard)

Good point. I should probably get in the habit of organizing dice when I roll accordingly.

"Together, they let you fly right through any obstacles you're locking and gain the extra die from Han's ability when firing through those same obstacles—without also granting an extra defense die to your target."

How do I both ignore an obstacle and gain a benefit from it at the same time, please?

7 minutes ago, skotothalamos said:

"Together, they let you fly right through any obstacles you're locking and gain the extra die from Han's ability when firing through those same obstacles—without also granting an extra defense die to your target."

How do I both ignore an obstacle and gain a benefit from it at the same time, please?

You ignore it but the attack doesn't? Strong FFG article writing as usual.

Not the first time upgrades conflicted. Remember Kavil came in the same box as the Y-Wing title.

3 hours ago, Biophysical said:

@Brunas can you explain your "Homing Missiles is almost TLT" comment a little more. I understand that both just do a damage, but Homing has 2 total shots in arc, vs 2 shots per turn.

Also, if you think it's like TLT, what does that make Protons Torps? They have literally no downside statwise compared to Homing, and are much better in most cases. Is all this pro-Homing feeling based on the assumption that they will be real cheap?

2 hours ago, Biophysical said:

Sorry, I don't understand this mindset at all. I'd pay points for an ability that let me take one point of damage to avoid a 4 dice ordnance attack. If it were the decision of the firing player, I could see your point, but its the defender's decision. If they don't want to take the point of damage, you just treat it like a crummy proton torpedo.

Unless your point is "players that can't do math and don't believe the advice of those who can do math might have an unreasonable emotional reaction", at which point I think you're operating well outside your normal parameters.

Maybe Bio is better at describing it, but i'm still thinking this. It's 1 damage. The chance for a potential cascading failure resulting in 3/4 damage is there, and becomes more and more likely at lower agi.

They may be generalist enough via the composite of every single edge case where they are relevant, but in most conventional fights in typical scenarios i would tend drastically to taking the 1 unless I have a green 3 on my card and some green circles on my ship.

Maybe have the cancel effect get worse as your agi goes down?

9 minutes ago, Kaptin Krunch said:

Maybe Bio is better at describing it, but i'm still thinking this. It's 1 damage. The chance for a potential cascading failure resulting in 3/4 damage is there, and becomes more and more likely at lower agi.

They may be generalist enough via the composite of every single edge case where they are relevant, but in most conventional fights in typical scenarios i would tend drastically to taking the 1 unless I have a green 3 on my card and some green circles on my ship.

Maybe have the cancel effect get worse as your agi goes down?

Hmm, I'm lost on why homing missiles just doing a damage is a problem - here's a better question than I've been asking, what are you expecting as costs for current proton torps and homing missiles?

10 minutes ago, Kaptin Krunch said:

Maybe have the cancel effect get worse as your agi goes down?

Just trying to catch up.

Why though? Is there something we're trying to stop? Doesn't low agility like the feature to cap damage at 1?

6 minutes ago, Brunas said:

Hmm, I'm lost on why homing missiles just doing a damage is a problem - here's a better question than I've been asking, what are you expecting as costs for current proton torps and homing missiles?

I think I'm not optimistic as to this card being priced properly. I don't like it because it's not better than the generalist Proton at a niche application, but worse in general. It's worse in general AND in specific applications. A Proton is better against low AGI and high AGI targets with the same number of charges.

1 minute ago, Biophysical said:

I think I'm not optimistic as to this card being priced properly. I don't like it because it's not better than the generalist Proton at a niche application, but worse in general. It's worse in general AND in specific applications. A Proton is better against low AGI and high AGI targets with the same number of charges.

Sure.

But most things have either a missile, or a torpedo. So they're not usually in direct competition, right?

4 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

Sure.

But most things have either a missile, or a torpedo. So they're not usually in direct competition, right?

That's true, so it may be it's that Torpedoes are supposed to just be better, which seems to be the trend. Torps have better stats, Missiles have more charges (generally). Homing, however, has charges like a torpedo which suggests the developers think it's torpedo good, but statwise it's plainly worse.

I admit I'm reading a ton of stuff into these things, and I'm fully aware that my gut feelings and projections based on 1st ed. have zero significance. This is just the impression that I've got.

The non-rational aversion comes from the hope that in 2.0, we'd see Missiles good against fighters, but Torps good against big lumbering things. Instead, we see Torps better against everything, and missiles get more shots (sometimes) and might be cheaper. That's less interesting game design to me, but it's a very minor quibble compared to all the good stuff we've seen regarding 2.0.

15 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

I think I'm not optimistic as to this card being priced properly. I don't like it because it's not better than the generalist Proton at a niche application, but worse in general. It's worse in general AND in specific applications. A Proton is better against low AGI and high AGI targets with the same number of charges.

OK, so then it's back to a pricing question, right?

Let's say proton torps are 10 points because it makes math easy. What do homing missiles have to cost for you to like it, or is there not a number? Here's my scale of what I mean:

0-3 PANIC

4-5 Probably autoinclude

6-7 Actual Decision

8+ No Thanks

Totally fired from the hip, not much thought put into it (because we don't have points for anything else).

Just now, Biophysical said:

That's true, so it may be it's that Torpedoes are supposed to just be better, which seems to be the trend. Torps have better stats, Missiles have more charges (generally). Homing, however, has charges like a torpedo which suggests the developers think it's torpedo good, but statwise it's plainly worse.

I admit I'm reading a ton of stuff into these things, and I'm fully aware that my gut feelings and projections based on 1st ed. have zero significance. This is just the impression that I've got.

The non-rational aversion comes from the hope that in 2.0, we'd see Missiles good against fighters, but Torps good against big lumbering things. Instead, we see Torps better against everything, and missiles get more shots (sometimes) and might be cheaper. That's less interesting game design to me, but it's a very minor quibble compared to all the good stuff we've seen regarding 2.0.

I don't think Torpedoes are supposed to better - I think Proton Torpedos are just good (any probably expensive). These missiles are good against fighters, presuming they're cheaper than torpedoes.

12 minutes ago, Brunas said:

OK, so then it's back to a pricing question, right?

Let's say proton torps are 10 points because it makes math easy. What do homing missiles have to cost for you to like it, or is there not a number? Here's my scale of what I mean:

0-3 PANIC

4-5 Probably autoinclude

6-7 Actual Decision

8+ No Thanks

Totally fired from the hip, not much thought put into it (because we don't have points for anything else).

I don't think Torpedoes are supposed to better - I think Proton Torpedos are just good (any probably expensive). These missiles are good against fighters, presuming they're cheaper than torpedoes.

We know Protons cost 8.

13 minutes ago, Brunas said:

OK, so then it's back to a pricing question, right?

Let's say proton torps are 10 points because it makes math easy. What do homing missiles have to cost for you to like it, or is there not a number? Here's my scale of what I mean:

0-3 PANIC

4-5 Probably autoinclude

6-7 Actual Decision

8+ No Thanks

Totally fired from the hip, not much thought put into it (because we don't have points for anything else).

I'd say it's hard to get to panic level, because 1 damage base is not scary when target locks are required and it only has 2 charges. It's hard to spam and does not do a lot more damage than a 3-dice primary (which might draw off a defensive token) with limited exceptions. Say you did a full alpha volley of 5 of these. You wouldn't kill an X-wing, and that X-wing could spend its focus on offense.

As is, I see it as a utility missile to grab an easy damage at Range 3 or finish off one hit point on a high defense target. So I think I'm at:

0-2, probably too cheap, but no major game breaking effects.

3-4, okay, depending on what you need in your list.

5-6, meta dependent decision.

7+, Rexler Brath Special.

I'll also note, any meta that largely uses 2 dice or less for Defense makes me pick a Concussion Missile for the same points, every time.

Let me throw a different idea out there. We know Proton Torps are 8. If Homing was 2 points, and you had a ship that could take both torps and missiles , I think you'd do your best to scrounge 6 points to get damage that couldn't be avoided.

2 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

Let me throw a different idea out there. We know Proton Torps are 8. If Homing was 2 points, and you had a ship that could take both torps and missiles , I think you'd do your best to scrounge 6 points to get damage that couldn't be avoided.

I think if homing missiles are 2 points I'm instead going to find the points to scrap the ship I'm running now, and take two As/TAPS/whatever a cheap scum missile carrier in scum is with homing instead. That's what I mean - there's definitely a point line where you'd rather take homing than proton, and I'm betting it's about 4 if proton really is 8 (jesus that seems good for 8). There's serious advantage to just dealing a damage and keeping your target lock. Kturn and do it again, because you still have the lock! Etc. Throw it and like.. APTs? Do those still exist? On a gunboat.

Yeah at 8 points I think protons may be the new harpoons. With the built in extra munitions and allowed to use a TL, proton ordinance lists could be very powerful in 2.0.

2 minutes ago, Brunas said:

I think if homing missiles are 2 points I'm instead going to find the points to scrap the ship I'm running now, and take two As/TAPS/whatever a cheap scum missile carrier in scum is with homing instead. That's what I mean - there's definitely a point line where you'd rather take homing than proton, and I'm betting it's about 4 if proton really is 8 (jesus that seems good for 8). There's serious advantage to just dealing a damage and keeping your target lock. Kturn and do it again, because you still have the lock! Etc. Throw it and like.. APTs? Do those still exist? On a gunboat.

I don't know for sure but that feels like a pretty light Gunboat. Gunboats in 1.0 are really powerful and pretty expensive, and they didn't get nerfed that much in 2.0 so I'm willing to bet the price goes up. Having a Gunboat that does a maximum of 1 damage per turn feels a little lackluster.

1 minute ago, Brunas said:

I think if homing missiles are 2 points I'm instead going to find the points to scrap the ship I'm running now, and take two As/TAPS/whatever a cheap scum missile carrier in scum is with homing instead. That's what I mean - there's definitely a point line where you'd rather take homing than proton, and I'm betting it's about 4 if proton really is 8 (jesus that seems good for 8). There's serious advantage to just dealing a damage and keeping your target lock. Kturn and do it again, because you still have the lock! Etc. Throw it and like.. APTs? Do those still exist? On a gunboat.

I think your math is likely wrong. In the extreme case, if Zs are 24, 26 with Homing, then two cost you 52.

A.) I think an X-wing with Torps and maybe a pilot upgrade is better than 2 Zs.

B.) Isn't it so much better to pay a little more and have 2 Zs with Prockets?

Thought from the non-math guy on homing missiles:

• I don't think homing missiles should get so cheap they're absolutely spammable in a swarm here. Sure, in a three ship it's not a problem, but take Blair with a Z95 swarm with these things? And they get to shoot twice each?

Just now, LagJanson said:

Thought from the non-math guy on homing missiles:

• I don't think homing missiles should get so cheap they're absolutely spammable in a swarm here. Sure, in a three ship it's not a problem, but take Blair with a Z95 swarm with these things? And they get to shoot twice each?

Do Thread Tracers exist in 2.0? That is why that squad works currently.