15 minutes ago, Boba Rick said:

When do they actually start talking?

Couple hours in. Once they start talking the content to noise ratio takes a nose dive though.

I’ve been listening to over an hour of dual of the Krayts today and the keep singing “father” “grandfather” and it got me thinking. Kylo has Vader’s burned helmet. What does the forest moon of Endor look like? Did he turn it to ash? Did he go all Ani v sand people? This seemed like the right place to leave this question

Mod sighting in the X-wing forum: The thread about Parker is now closed, meaning that someone did it recently. Mods are real?

Content: When GMing a campaign, it is important to do two things: 1. errata some abilities to work together. 2. make the most maneuverable ship you can so you don't need to think about your dial, only the bad guys dial.

Also, I won X-wing forum bingo! Fire the devs, Nerf (something), Unironic Get gud, Wholesome paint thread, and bad B-wing list! Where do I claim my prize?

9 hours ago, Kaptin Krunch said:

I've seen Final Salvo get nominated as well- Maybe just go full hog and say your favorite alternate format is "Quitting the game"?

Quitting the game?? Bah!

Time to go on a rant here.

I like to tease Zack at our Tuesday LGS game nights about him being upset with the game with all the success he's had and continues to have.

But the truth is that I'm sadly falling deeper into that wave of thought as well, and I don't have much success to bail me out. Other than being in the IR for the 2nd season in a row for vassal league and winning a league at my LGS several months back, I really haven't had any significant x-wing success in well over 2 years now.

In fact I've been playing since late 2013 and my first year playing x-wing was easily my best year competitively. And sadly I think I've possibly had more NPE's in the past year than all the other years combined (including one tonight on vassal).

Not sure which is worse, the fact that running a casual list is almost an auto loss at this point unless your opponent runs one as well (recently went 2-9 with a list that was almost the same as one I won about 75% of my games with a couple years ago), or the fact that even the Tier 2 lists I like to run when playing competitively are falling short to the meta more and more as this game progresses.

I would totally go casual only at this point, if not for the fact I'm super competitive. Just wish I could still fly what I want and have my flying matter somewhat. Depending how vassal league goes along with SC's in a few months, I might have to take a long break from x-wing for awhile, barring some major changes from FFG, or an announcement about adding clone war era factions.

//End rant

1 hour ago, Do I need a Username said:

Also, I won X-wing forum bingo! Fire the devs, Nerf (something), Unironic Get gud, Wholesome paint thread, and bad B-wing list! Where do I claim my prize?

Darn! I was close. I got CubanBoy Happy Friday thread, people in Off Topic bagging on TLJ again, a surprisingly good conversation in the which preview will be out today thread, and I created a monster/conspiracy theory (QD nerf in the thread about last week's article).

I'm still a little proud of that last one, actually.

28 minutes ago, markcsoul said:

Time to go on a rant here.

I like to tease Zack at our Tuesday LGS game nights about him being upset with the game with all the success he's had and continues to have.

But the truth is that I'm sadly falling deeper into that wave of thought as well, and I don't have much success to bail me out. Other than being in the IR for the 2nd season in a row for vassal league and winning a league at my LGS several months back, I really haven't had any significant x-wing success in well over 2 years now.

In fact I've been playing since late 2013 and my first year playing x-wing was easily my best year competitively. And sadly I think I've possibly had more NPE's in the past year than all the other years combined (including one tonight on vassal).

Not sure which is worse, the fact that running a casual list is almost an auto loss at this point unless your opponent runs one as well (recently went 2-9 with a list that was almost the same as one I won about 75% of my games with a couple years ago), or the fact that even the Tier 2 lists I like to run when playing competitively are falling short to the meta more and more as this game progresses.

I would totally go casual only at this point, if not for the fact I'm super competitive. Just wish I could still fly what I want and have my flying matter somewhat. Depending how vassal league goes along with SC's in a few months, I might have to take a long break from x-wing for awhile, barring some major changes from FFG, or an announcement about adding clone war era factions.

//End rant

I (sort-of) get that feeling. Some games feel lost at the list-building phase, and the game is little more than a formality. I can play better than my opponent, but then combos bail them out. Its not fun. I would say HOTAC (And will anyway, because its super cool), but with wanting to play competitive it might be a struggle (Try doing it every other week, alternating with competitive - our store has found success with this method). Or playing something like defenders for a while. Maybe I am more optimistic because I was never good enough to win anything (and by the time I practiced up to that level, there wasn't anything to win), so I haven't felt the despair of slowly sliding into a different game than I signed up for. And look! I just went on a different rant... Oh well, rants happen.

So curious here...

• It's clear the meta sucks - and because these card combos are more potent than actually flying we can expect to see these
• HotAC is great - but doesn't fit the need for certain types of gamers
• The home gamers can dodge the worst of this because the home meta is generally safe
• Alternate tournament formats have biases and balance issues, but are generally a much more relaxed and fun atmosphere
• Epic - well, it's a longer game and most Xwing players aren't looking for that. Those that do like that format though are generally a happier bunch.

Is it simply that the 100/6 format is bad? The specialized lists that win these tend to be hard counters to other lists, or are hard countered themselves. Does the game need objectives or conditions to add some variation to the game state to reduce these lists and promote more generalized lists?

@Brunas - How has general opinion been on the Objective format? I've still only tried a couple of games, and while I've enjoyed them, I've been totally unable to get much traction in selling this to my local group to run as a tournament. I've received two complaints:

1. Complexity that they introduced confused players...
2. Hilariously, the other comment was like "I don't feel the objective was more than an excuse to get in and fight." Which I told him it was precisely the point - so that it shut down refusal to engage and running away for time.

Anyway, the locals have spoken... Got a gunfighter variant to run for a Q1 kit. Can only attack from the forward 80 degree fire arc, no secondary weapons, no bombs. Also no Palp, only because I'm rather concerned by the power vacuum left behind. Yes, I know this means some ships are totally not worth bringing... MAH HAWKS! That said, it's a dial based game then and it seemed everybody wanted to fly a game where dials mattered. Funny that.

Just now, LagJanson said:

So curious here...

• It's clear the meta sucks - and because these card combos are more potent than actually flying we can expect to see these
• HotAC is great - but doesn't fit the need for certain types of gamers
• The home gamers can dodge the worst of this because the home meta is generally safe
• Alternate tournament formats have biases and balance issues, but are generally a much more relaxed and fun atmosphere
• Epic - well, it's a longer game and most Xwing players aren't looking for that. Those that do like that format though are generally a happier bunch.

Is it simply that the 100/6 format is bad? The specialized lists that win these tend to be hard counters to other lists, or are hard countered themselves. Does the game need objectives or conditions to add some variation to the game state to reduce these lists and promote more generalized lists?

The standard format is still fun - the ships and combo are unfun.

Objectives are also fun, but these lists even break objectives. Turret spam is just unfun everywhere.

This may indicate a lack of good taste/culture but I recently tried HOTAC, Legion, L5R, Imperial Assault, and Magic for the first time. I found all of it incredibly boring. Happy for anyone else who enjoys that stuff. But I felt like they each represented something I don't like about X-Wing condensed into its own experience. It all feels to stationary. Despite its flaws and my complaints....100/6 X-Wing is still significantly better than any miniatures game I have played (admittedly I haven't played many and still need to try Guild Ball).

10 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

The standard format is still fun - the ships and combo are unfun.

Yeah, that wasn't what I was saying when I said 100/6 was bad. I meant it promoted dumb ship combos because of the format style itself. Absolutely 100/6 is fun without these - see the home players and casual nights where nobody brings the unfun stuff. I love 100/6 in a controlled environment.

In a lot of cases though, individual bits aren't as broken when looked at individually - it's when the combo is honed into it's most efficient form that it becomes stupid. But if you change the format... The 70 point monstrosity Ghost wants nothing to do with the epic format, even supported by Fenn and another 100-200 points, for example. It's still the same ship, but the format has changed in a way that doesn't allow it the same range of play.

17 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

Objectives are also fun, but these lists even break objectives.

Fair. I haven't the experience to fall on for the objective stuff. I also indicated myself that alternate formats tend to show our own biases and create their own balance issues - so I'm hardly indicating that these are a solution in themselves.

24 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

Turret spam is just unfun everywhere.

Turrets just suck though. Full agreement there.

24 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

This may indicate a lack of good taste/culture but I recently tried HOTAC, Legion, L5R, Imperial Assault, and Magic for the first time. I found all of it incredibly boring. Happy for anyone else who enjoys that stuff. But I felt like they each represented something I don't like about X-Wing condensed into its own experience. It all feels to stationary. Despite its flaws and my complaints....100/6 X-Wing is still significantly better than any miniatures game I have played (admittedly I haven't played many and still need to try Guild Ball).

I can only speak for HOTAC and legion, but in my mind HOTAC is fun because it lets me purposefully break the game, and have a social experience while doing it. That said, It really depends on your community - if the people you play with aren't nice / fun to be around, HOTAC won't be fun either. That said, if you don't like it, I won't force you to play it - its not for everyone. As for Legion, I don't really know what you don't like, but that is fine too - again, no one will force you to play it. 100/3 X-wing is fun, and I of think it is one of the best Miniatures game, close behind Armada and tied with Legion. I use casual formats to introduce people to the games in low pressure environments, and then switch them to competitive (armada, not sure about competitive legion yet). Funnily enough, I don't like Guild Ball as much as those any other ones. Maybe because it fills the same space as X-wing (competitive, about 60 minutes) that I would just rather play some weird lists in X-wing than play guild ball. Its not a bad game, just not one I see myself buying everything for.

49 minutes ago, LagJanson said:

Yes, I know this means some ships are totally not worth bringing... MAH HAWKS!

Wrong, play this: https://geordanr.github.io/xwing/?f=Rebel Alliance&d=v4!s!47:27,-1,38:3:-1:;48:205,-1,32:-1:-1:;41:57,44,247,-1,-1:-1:11:U.63&sn=Unnamed Squadron&obs=

It combines the very best of X-wing: Overpriced B-wings and Stupid combos. But if it works once, It works. Also just noticed the cannon isn't legal, so I fixed that.

3 minutes ago, Do I need a Username said:

Wrong, play this: https://geordanr.github.io/xwing/?f=Rebel Alliance&d=v4!s!47:-1,-1,38:3:-1:;48:-1,-1,32:-1:-1:;41:57,36,110,-1,-1:-1:11:U.63&sn=Unnamed Squadron&obs=

The Hawks are fine. Ten can't use his Mangler though under that rule set... I'd totally throw an alt art or something at somebody who brought a list like that though!

Just now, LagJanson said:

The Hawks are fine. Ten can't use his Mangler though under that rule set... I'd totally throw an alt art or something at somebody who brought a list like that though!

I saw that, swaped it for Linked batteries and then made FCS sensor jammer. Now he needs the 4 dice to roll the crit.

55 minutes ago, LagJanson said:

• Alternate tournament formats have biases and balance issues, but are generally a much more relaxed and fun atmosphere
• Epic - well, it's a longer game and most Xwing players aren't looking for that. Those that do like that format though are generally a happier bunch.

Alt formats work precisely because they're alternate. All formats, including 100/6, have bias and balance issues the difference is that we've figured those out and as you mentioned honed them to a fine edge. An alt format just hits the reset button on that and forces the meta to redevelop, a period that tends to be fun for everyone. But due to a lot of systemic issues in the game it will almost always inevitably coalesce into a state that's as bad or worse than 100/6.

Epic is no different. The sad fact for all of those champions of epic out there is that it's only not broken because no one cares enough to break it.

2 minutes ago, Do I need a Username said:

I saw that, swaped it for Linked batteries and then made FCS sensor jammer. Now he needs the 4 dice to roll the crit.

Good read on the rules there, the actual wording on it is "cannot fire a secondary weapon" so linked batteries would work... Excellent. The Sunny Bounder meta has evolved!

I'd be impressed if that could Ten list would win any games, but I'd be cheering for the guy brave enough to fly that.

59 minutes ago, LagJanson said:

So curious here...

• It's clear the meta sucks - and because these card combos are more potent than actually flying we can expect to see these
• HotAC is great - but doesn't fit the need for certain types of gamers
• The home gamers can dodge the worst of this because the home meta is generally safe
• Alternate tournament formats have biases and balance issues, but are generally a much more relaxed and fun atmosphere
• Epic - well, it's a longer game and most Xwing players aren't looking for that. Those that do like that format though are generally a happier bunch.

Is it simply that the 100/6 format is bad? The specialized lists that win these tend to be hard counters to other lists, or are hard countered themselves. Does the game need objectives or conditions to add some variation to the game state to reduce these lists and promote more generalized lists?

@Brunas - How has general opinion been on the Objective format? I've still only tried a couple of games, and while I've enjoyed them, I've been totally unable to get much traction in selling this to my local group to run as a tournament. I've received two complaints:

1. Complexity that they introduced confused players...
2. Hilariously, the other comment was like "I don't feel the objective was more than an excuse to get in and fight." Which I told him it was precisely the point - so that it shut down refusal to engage and running away for time.

Anyway, the locals have spoken... Got a gunfighter variant to run for a Q1 kit. Can only attack from the forward 80 degree fire arc, no secondary weapons, no bombs. Also no Palp, only because I'm rather concerned by the power vacuum left behind. Yes, I know this means some ships are totally not worth bringing... MAH HAWKS! That said, it's a dial based game then and it seemed everybody wanted to fly a game where dials mattered. Funny that.

For Epic and other formats, they are likely just as ****** at 100/6. They don't have the manhours spent to figure out what **** them yet.

This is why the meta is open right after a FAQ or release- No one knows what is best (yet).

4 minutes ago, Makaze said:

An alt format just hits the reset button on that and forces the meta to redevelop, a period that tends to be fun for everyone.

3 minutes ago, Kaptin Krunch said:

They don't have the manhours spent to figure out what **** them yet.

Yep. I'll admit the coffee didn't have me thinking that through as much as I'd like. I admit being wrong.

2 minutes ago, LagJanson said:

Yep. I'll admit the coffee didn't have me thinking that through as much as I'd like. I admit being wrong.

I wouldn't say wrong at all. You're absolutely right that a lot of alt formats tend to be more fun than standard is right now. I was just clarifying why they're more fun which leads to the important practical consideration that none of the alt formats is a silver bullet solution since they all have expiration dates once you open the can. Fortunately there are a lot of cans on the shelf.

23 minutes ago, Makaze said:

Alt formats work precisely because they're alternate. All formats, including 100/6, have bias and balance issues the difference is that we've figured those out and as you mentioned honed them to a fine edge. An alt format just hits the reset button on that and forces the meta to redevelop, a period that tends to be fun for everyone. But due to a lot of systemic issues in the game it will almost always inevitably coalesce into a state that's as bad or worse than 100/6.

Epic is no different. The sad fact for all of those champions of epic out there is that it's only not broken because no one cares enough to break it.

This is why random objectives and conditions are good. It prevents dominant lists from developing by changing the parameters of the game in a random fashion.

Take games like Runewars, Armada and Legion. You have semi-Random Objectives, Deployments, Conditions and such that alter the goal of the game in such a manner that you can't have the same turn 0, or you have to approach your enemy in a different fashion to prevent them from wining via the objective or a condition prevents you from being able to snipe from long range the first few turns, etc.

Because of these changes, and that what you are playing is some different semi-random permutation every time, it is going to make it extremely difficult for a particular list to dominate. Sure, there will be some lists that are overall good, there will be some overpowered cards that need errata, and other lists that are just bad, and those will of course get stomped in play, but its hard to make one list that abuses every possible win condition like you can with a 100/6 game where the win condition is the same every single time (have all or more points killed than your opponent at the end of 75 mins)

4 minutes ago, Makaze said:

I wouldn't say wrong at all. You're absolutely right that a lot of alt formats tend to be more fun than standard is right now. I was just clarifying why they're more fun which leads to the important practical consideration that none of the alt formats is a silver bullet solution since they all have expiration dates once you open the can. Fortunately there are a lot of cans on the shelf.

Yeah, never thought it was a silver bullet. Just wondered myself whether a solution might lay down that road somewhere. Didn't put the next thought into place... which @Tlfj200 ultimately stated in his return argument, but not in the way that triggered that next thought. There's enough out there to break any format if given the time to analyze things. I'm overly enthusiastic!

At the moment, my group wants me to pull cans off the shelf... I admit it gets a bit tiring on me to constantly research these ideas and see if it'll work.

19 minutes ago, kris40k said:

This is why random objectives and conditions are good. It prevents dominant lists from developing by changing the parameters of the game in a random fashion.

Take games like Runewars, Armada and Legion. You have semi-Random Objectives, Deployments, Conditions and such that alter the goal of the game in such a manner that you can't have the same turn 0, or you have to approach your enemy in a different fashion to prevent them from wining via the objective or a condition prevents you from being able to snipe from long range the first few turns, etc.

Because of these changes, and that what you are playing is some different semi-random permutation every time, it is going to make it extremely difficult for a particular list to dominate. Sure, there will be some lists that are overall good, there will be some overpowered cards that need errata, and other lists that are just bad, and those will of course get stomped in play, but its hard to make one list that abuses every possible win condition like you can with a 100/6 game where the win condition is the same every single time (have all or more points killed than your opponent at the end of 75 mins)

I've said this before, but objectives can certainly help "hide" imbalances in the game (I'm not saying it's a bad thing). However, one of the things about games that you mention is that they have a lot fewer eyes on the cards and the game, both in terms of population and reps, which is also helps a game to feel more balanced. Even with that, Armada has had its share of issues and it's not just a bad ship or rule, but those issues are generally less pronounced because of the smaller population (I can't speak to Runewars or Legion as I haven't played them and Legion is certainly in a honeymoon phase). If Armada had several 100+ player regionals I bet we'd see the issues the game has magnified.

41 minutes ago, Kaptin Krunch said:

This is why the meta is open right after a FAQ or release- No one knows what is best (yet).

IMO most of the complaints about the competitive state of this game come at times when the meta has, or at least feels to have, stagnated. I for one welcome FAQ's even if they hit what I am playing as it inspires me to build.

What are some ways that we (or FFG) could use this to keep the meta fresher? For example my initial thought (off the cuff with no thought of implications) is phasing in and out expansions/cards for periods of time.