19 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

I have been trying to say that Quickdraw, Dash, Nu, and Poe are fun but basically bad for awhile. Not sure if this graph confirms that gut feeling or not but I always found the counter point from people "but look how many are used at tournaments" to be vague and unconvincing.

Winning is Winning.

"Plot Armor" - AKA Poe + Dash is a list that a lot of players can take and fairly easily go 3-3. It's not a list that a lot of players can go 5-1 or 4-2 with a high MOV. The current Fenn + Ghost archetype can murder it in a hurry. Especially if you don't engage right and can't take out Fenn before Dash is half health or worse. Poe is a fortress ship that you have to run with to win. If you are ahead on points running for 30+ minutes with him isn't fun, is very tiring, and takes a special type of player for it work over the course of 6 games.

27 minutes ago, viedit said:

"Plot Armor" - AKA Poe + Dash is a list that a lot of players can take and fairly easily go 3-3. It's not a list that a lot of players can go 5-1 or 4-2 with a high MOV. The current Fenn + Ghost archetype can murder it in a hurry. Especially if you don't engage right and can't take out Fenn before Dash is half health or worse. Poe is a fortress ship that you have to run with to win. If you are ahead on points running for 30+ minutes with him isn't fun, is very tiring, and takes a special type of player for it work over the course of 6 games.

can't run from GhostFenn with Poe, which is the main problem. Poe's 43. Half a Ghost plus Zeb is 45. Poe has to actually engage the boss monster and he usually gets murdered by the hail of fire.

22 minutes ago, skotothalamos said:

can't run from GhostFenn with Poe, which is the main problem. Poe's 43. Half a Ghost plus Zeb is 45. Poe has to actually engage the boss monster and he usually gets murdered by the hail of fire.

Maybe the only redeeming thing about Ghost/Fenn.

35 minutes ago, viedit said:

"Plot Armor" - AKA Poe + Dash is a list that a lot of players can take and fairly easily go 3-3. It's not a list that a lot of players can go 5-1 or 4-2 with a high MOV. The current Fenn + Ghost archetype can murder it in a hurry. Especially if you don't engage right and can't take out Fenn before Dash is half health or worse. Poe is a fortress ship that you have to run with to win. If you are ahead on points running for 30+ minutes with him isn't fun, is very tiring, and takes a special type of player for it work over the course of 6 games.

I think Zack talked about how Corran is usually just sad bad Miranda? Poe seems like he is in kinda the same space.

Putting either of them in a list is like saying to the world..."I know what I have to do but I am not sure I have the strength to do it."

Its a sign of some lingering commitment to play the game.

The # of people that run Dash/Poe makes sense though.

The Black One T-70 looks fun on the table and people will always go to great lengths to keep him on the table.

I find it hard to watch when a new player inevitably figures out that Poe isn't actually any good or any fun.

Usually doesn't take to many games either. By game 3 there is this realization that....oh....so I don't get to play either?

Its sad really. Poe deserves better.

Thanks for nothing R2D2.

3 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

One more:

...

There are no huge outliers as far as I can tell. Maybe that Dash, Poe, QD and Nu are rather bad.

I'm not sure we can draw that conclusion. We know lists are more represented in juggler the higher they do in Swiss, so our "Swiss" pool isn't actually a sample of everything, and it definitely isn't a representative subset either.

3 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

Thanks for nothing R2D2.

Something, Something, BB-8 is just as good, Europe swears.

Poe is good. But a PS11 ship that can strip his focus and coordinate a favorable boost to a hyper accurate 4 attack TLT/4 or 5 dice primary large base turret is better. *queue the sad trombone*

6 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

I find it hard to watch when a new player inevitably figures out that Poe isn't actually any good or any fun.

Usually doesn't take to many games either. By game 3 there is this realization that....oh....so I don't get to play either?

Its sad really. Poe deserves better.

Thanks for nothing R2D2.

There are Poe builds that are good, and fun ... but received wisdom on the internet tells us that we should never play them.

BB-8 Thrusters intensity Poe is great fun to play as and against, similarly BB-8 Comm relay intensity Poe ... were it not for the present obsession with PS11, you might enjoy him more.

Both hit double focus, bank evades and dance about ... it removes the regen safety net, but as imperial players will tell us, you don't need regen if you Git Gud.

10 minutes ago, Dreadai said:

There are Poe builds that are good, and fun ... but received wisdom on the internet tells us that we should never play them.

BB-8 Thrusters intensity Poe is great fun to play as and against, similarly BB-8 Comm relay intensity Poe ... were it not for the present obsession with PS11, you might enjoy him more.

11 minutes ago, viedit said:

Poe is good. But a PS11 ship that can strip his focus and coordinate a favorable boost to a hyper accurate 4 attack TLT/4 or 5 dice primary large base turret is better. *queue the sad trombone*

Oh don't get me wrong. I 100% enjoy the **** out of BB8 Poe on casual nights.

I don't run Rebels often but when I do its BB8 Poe, Jake, and Wedge or Jan Ors.

But all of those things are competitively terrible which is what I am referring to.

Ghost/Fenn isn't the reason Poe is bad.

R2D2 is the only competitively good thing about Poe.

Without R2D2...Poe is worse than Thweek.

Strictly talking about tournament play as it relates to Poe with the intention to make Top 4.

3 minutes ago, Dreadai said:

There are Poe builds that are good, and fun ... but received wisdom on the internet tells us that we should never play them.

Fun? This is the wrong topic to talk about fun. Fun does not exist in Krayt's dojo, does it?

4 minutes ago, Dreadai said:

Both hit double focus, bank evades and dance about ... it removes the regen safety net, but as imperial players will tell us, you don't need regen if you Git Gud.

I'll take Palp + 3 green dice + Evade + Focus on Inquisitor in this turret **** over intensity Poe.

Full disclosure...I am a contributor to the turret ****.

6 minutes ago, FTS Gecko said:

Fun? This is the wrong topic to talk about fun. Fun does not exist in Krayt's dojo, does it?

I disagree.

16 minutes ago, Brunas said:

I'm not sure we can draw that conclusion. We know lists are more represented in juggler the higher they do in Swiss, so our "Swiss" pool isn't actually a sample of everything, and it definitely isn't a representative subset either.

I agree, I mentioned only in a later post. I could take a look at tournaments restricted to complete lists. I think I will

In my stupid theory building moments, I thought I'd put together as few upgrades as possible for me to forget about when drinking... and yet still inflict maximum salt....

• (41) Lothal Rebel - TLT, Courier Droid
• (41) Lothal Rebel - TLT, Courier Droid, Ghost Title, Chopper
• (18) Zeb - Phantom Title

There. Nothing for me to forget. Just spam TLT and don't care about arcs or opponent's TLT. (Ok, autothruster aces will eat me unless I can point an arc... but I'm sure they'll be plenty salty anyway)

9 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

Strictly talking about tournament play as it relates to Poe with the intention to make Top 4.

At least one, large (130+) UK regional was won by Dash with BB-8 thrusters Poe. I suffer from a lack of care to dig for other results.

I'd similarly prefer to be able to token stack like inquisitor and hide behind 3 green dice and autothrusters, but then I can't fly Poe!

51 minutes ago, skotothalamos said:

can't run from GhostFenn with Poe, which is the main problem. Poe's 43. Half a Ghost plus Zeb is 45. Poe has to actually engage the boss monster and he usually gets murdered by the hail of fire.

29 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

Maybe the only redeeming thing about Ghost/Fenn.

Yay! Congrats!! It only took 167 pages for us to get to something truly redeeming!

8 minutes ago, LagJanson said:

In my stupid theory building moments, I thought I'd put together as few upgrades as possible for me to forget about when drinking... and yet still inflict maximum salt....

• (41) Lothal Rebel - TLT, Courier Droid
• (41) Lothal Rebel - TLT, Courier Droid, Ghost Title, Chopper
• (18) Zeb - Phantom Title

There. Nothing for me to forget. Just spam TLT and don't care about arcs or opponent's TLT. (Ok, autothruster aces will eat me unless I can point an arc... but I'm sure they'll be plenty salty anyway)

If you are using two ghosts with TLT, you want EU. No scratch that. You NEED EU.

2 minutes ago, clanofwolves said:

Yay! Congrats!! It only took 167 pages for us to get to something truly redeeming!

Yay.

14 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

I disagree.

Pffft. Daniel-san was fielding jank. So he won one tournament, that's just an outlier. The Cobra-kai run meta because they're winners.

7 minutes ago, Dreadai said:

At least one, large (130+) UK regional was won by Dash with BB-8 thrusters Poe. I suffer from a lack of care to dig for other results.

I'd similarly prefer to be able to token stack like inquisitor and hide behind 3 green dice and autothrusters, but then I can't fly Poe!

I want BB8 Poe to be good as badly as anyone. Its so much fun and perfectly thematic.

Just now, viedit said:

If you are using two ghosts with TLT, you want EU. No scratch that. You NEED EU.

EU costs me a 4 die rear arc and a double tap ability on the TLT. Totally not worth it. Accept that things will die. Circle of life, and all that. I want the world to burn.

Again speaking from experience on two ghosts + TLT....you would be amazed how often you whiff on TLT. With no FCS you are relying on TL action and focus. And then you aren't banking the evade. Those will melt in hurry. I've got a decent amount of experience with that sort of variant.

10 minutes ago, LagJanson said:

Accept that things will die. Circle of life, and all that. I want the world to burn.

That's the spirit!

3 minutes ago, viedit said:

Again speaking from experience on two ghosts + TLT....you would be amazed how often you whiff on TLT. With no FCS you are relying on TL action and focus. And then you aren't banking the evade. Those will melt in hurry. I've got a decent amount of experience with that sort of variant.

You imply I care about winning. I said burn. Alcohol fueled fires of salt.

Seriously though, I'm trolling. I don't think I could bring myself to fly something like this more than just a one off. I'm a shock artist. I like watching my opponent stare at my list in horror as all their practiced tactics and strategies are thrown out the window. The joy would fade once dice started falling.

47 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

Something, Something, BB-8 is just as good, Europe swears.

I suspect it's being played for the same reason you're playing something not Ghost-Fenn. It's pretty good, and tolerable to play.