Just now, gamblertuba said:Exactly. Have not been able to find the lists for Coruscant. So the question becomes why weren't they played more? Is Galactic Republic unpopular because it's bad? Is it a bad faction because it's unpopular? Is it only popular with bad players?
Or is this just noise and we'll see plenty of them in the next big tourney?
Wait it’s all noise?
always has been.
27 minutes ago, Revanur said:Maybe you don't want to include the Nantex meta and that leaves only Coruscant and some minor events of data which isn't a lot.
That doesn't mean we should say high I passive mod have been good all of 2.0 so they are still op now. As they had some nerfs were other things got buffed. Data pre July point update is also no longer a good indicator of the current situation.
Disclaimer: not saying something is or isn't here, but find which data ok to include and which not a bit off
Thats true, the pre-Nantex data isn't an argument of today's state form a strictly raw data point of view. My opinion based on my understanding of the game is that the nerfs and buffs were mild enough that the aces are still on top, but we'll see what happens in the next 6 months.
16 minutes ago, FlyingAnchors said:Wait it’s all noise?
always has been.
I don't believe you.
This thread, in particular, has championed data based takes on the game for years.
My extremely uneducated guess on a lack of Republic data is because they didn't have great tools to support Clone spam archetypes until the Laat/i showed up, so it was a bunch of jedi aces who I expect would get utterly dunked on by Spamtex, so all the dedicated aces-or-bust players jumped ship back to Empire. With the death of Spamtex and the arrival of the Reroll Boat Supreme, they might start seeing more play.
If coruscant was post-laat and I'm wrong about all of this, please let me know.
Seems more like the Republic just doesn't like the current meta. The trend of 3 agility, high ship count lists (or other pieces with absurd green mods i.e. Boba & Whisper) makes it very hard for a faction that has one affordable 3 gun ship to succeed. Torrents lose every time against scyks, droids, and /fos, and CLT Jedi need very good variance (and bullseyes) to push damage on a regular basis.
The faction has plenty of good pieces and a few archetypes that have promise, and I suspect their performance is more an issue of meta than anything else. Seems like the main archetypes are:
I think 5-6 Y is very underrated and is a good list, but it doesn't like 6-8 consistent 2 die attacks each round.
17 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:I don't believe you.
This thread, in particular, has championed data based takes on the game for years.
You don't believe... my meme? Oki doki then.
Also Do not cite the Advanced Targeting Computer at me, for I was there when it was posted.
2 hours ago, Npmartian said:My extremely uneducated guess on a lack of Republic data is because they didn't have great tools to support Clone spam archetypes until the Laat/i showed up, so it was a bunch of jedi aces who I expect would get utterly dunked on by Spamtex, so all the dedicated aces-or-bust players jumped ship back to Empire. With the death of Spamtex and the arrival of the Reroll Boat Supreme, they might start seeing more play.
If coruscant was post-laat and I'm wrong about all of this, please let me know.
LAAT was Coruscant Legal, it's been around since the Crait Galactic championship, however I don't think your assessment is entirely wrong about it being a support ship, because I think with spamtex dying literally days before that people defaulted to what they were more comfortable with that was meta Pre-Nantex than try to figure the LAAT out.
Edited by FlyingAnchorsFor what it's worth:
Are Jedi "Bad, Actually?"
I mean, there was clearly a time in X-Wing when they were "Good, Actually" could it be possible that this is no longer the case?
My take on aces, fwiw...
Tenuous circumstancial evidence: The last HS tourney I went to, a few weeks ago, was 10 people. There were 4 Rep lists. 2 of which, (last Norway/Denmark.... I forget which, national champ) vs (last 1.0 Euro champ), contested the top table.
Observation: Reps are not finished yet.
Theory: Nantex were responsible for a massive drop off in force ace usage in a wider sense. Certain aces do indeed remain on the cheap side, regardless of current data.
Prediction: The kind of efficiency spam we're maybe seeing now will almost certainly be balanced by a return of force aces in a longer term future, now Nantex are less feared, if things remain as is.
Resolution: Dealing with one end of the spectrum, and not the other, just leaves the other.
Additional baseless opinion: The current playability threshold is too high for a vast number of mid range lists, leaving us with potentially one of the most min/max meta's we've had in 2.0.
Snarky addendum: Which I guess is good news for all the people who think swarms or aces are the best and only thing worth using. Which I presume is nobody.
2 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:Are Jedi "Bad, Actually?"
I mean, there was clearly a time in X-Wing when they were "Good, Actually" could it be possible that this is no longer the case?
They might just be balanced, so that's good. So many think that if something isn't undercosted it's actually bad. They're probably just falling victims to the remaining actually undercosted stuff. Also the death of the regen jedi archetype is most definitely a good thing.
16 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:Are Jedi "Bad, Actually?"
I mean, I'm looking at this and seeing "Obi-wan is losing to i5 passive mod turrets", so
2 hours ago, svelok said:Okay, so I read this as "I don't like to take damage" or "I don't like it when my ships die". Every position isn't a bad position - if a swarm is spreading its arcs to ensure it has a shot everywhere, than it doesn't have good shots anywhere. A swarm that spreads its arcs is hoping to do maybe one damage to something; ships don't die unless it gets multiple arcs on target.
That means that you can create massively favorable situations by pointing a bunch of your arcs at the single swarm arc facing you. Or you can have one shot that's high quality (more dice / mods) vs the swarm ship's single low quality (fewer dice / mods) shot. Bringing TIEs and Wookies into the same mixing pot is super not the case - the strong point of Wookies is how easily they mass shots, and how little the arc coverage makes their dials matter. TIEs are the opposite - every game is about getting arcs on target.
You can read whatever you want. I know how to play this game. I don't want to talk about hypothetical situations. I have my opinion and my experience behind that.
I traded ships a lot of times for better position or victory conditions. That's not matter.
I see those lists as a problem symptom because I think they brings low skill players to the average level. Maybe that's good for the game but sorry, I don't like it.
There are lists that wins unless your opponent plays without mistakes. The opponent needs to work creating favourable trades or approaches. That lists sometimes only wait the mistakes and capitalize those ones very well. They are challenging, but like I said, when they are very popular, I think the game is worse.
I don't want the Ace players bullying everywhere. I simply like the game more when my opponent plays better than me, not because they have a powerfull efficient passive squad that waits until I make a bad choice.
I don't play this squads either because I don't sense that I deserve the win from a mistake, and if my opponent plays without them, I think that I have no chance.
I agree that they are not top tier lists, and probably there are a lot of good players that don't use them (maybe they think like me) but you can see some of them (wookies especially) in the last tournaments.
I think the benefit of playing this type of squads are less the more skill the player has.
They give better results so they impact the meta, and because I want the skill remains prevalent, I am a little concerned. That's all.
So how many pages do you think we can get to before the forum goes down?
Move to AMG thoughts
I've been asked about this and I'll just add some thoughts and people can take it or leave it.
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I played Warmachine while some of the devs at AMG were either playing the game or devs for it. I participated in CIDs where some of the current AMG staff were devs. I've also seen what happened when they left Privateer Press and launched Marvel Crisis Protocol. Overall, I think they're good designers and generally have faith in them to produce a good game.
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If you've checked the playtester credits on some of the Star Wars Legion, you've also probably figured out that I did do some testing with that company. I also own Legion, Armada and X-Wing stuff and play those games.
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I don't think it's a good or bad thing, it's just a new thing. I'm curious if AMG will bring on some of the FFG devs or just handle everything themselves. There are some names I would like to see return to continue their stewardship and some others that, I wouldn't be disappointed to see back, but would be interested to see what a fresh face with a new perspective would do.
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Grain of salt etc
well that interview from atomic mass was certainly worthless
This seems like a good time to get some people in front of a camera to calm people's anxieties and wild speculation. Maybe get the dev team out there with a current newspaper so we know that they still work there?
On 11/16/2020 at 12:37 PM, GreenDragoon said:If you wouldn't dismiss data from 1122 lists, or way more if adding Spacejams, then you would add facts to help you make sense of it. However good you think those numbers are - they are better than nothing. Which is what all the other feelings around here are based on...
What is a low rate of adoption to you? Ask Mark, he has seen the numbers. I was happy to share but have since deleted it because facts apparently don't matter anymore.
On 11/16/2020 at 1:24 PM, gamblertuba said:Exactly. Have not been able to find the lists for Coruscant. So the question becomes why weren't they played more? Is Galactic Republic unpopular because it's bad? Is it a bad faction because it's unpopular? Is it only popular with bad players?
Or is this just noise and we'll see plenty of them in the next big tourney?
On 11/16/2020 at 1:41 PM, GreenDragoon said:I don't believe you.
This thread, in particular, has championed data based takes on the game for years.
Response to all three - yeah, it's really unfortunate that there's no real data for the past... almost 10 months now, sadly. Obviously the cause of that no data is even more sad, but not being able to look at results meaningfully (and in fact having to explicitly try and convince people data is currently not valuable is... jarring. Like here for example, is republic bad? I certainly can't meaningfully contribute, we have one or two events with current points, and on top of that most of those lists were presumably all constructed before the points change, so even that meta is a bizarro once off meta. They might be bad, they might be great, but no matter how much we pour through these couple tournaments, we aren't going to find anything meaningful 
2 hours ago, Transmogrifier said:This seems like a good time to get some people in front of a camera to calm people's anxieties and wild speculation. Maybe get the dev team out there with a current newspaper so we know that they still work there?
I'm not sure if this is a joke or not or actually just not informed, but... yeah. I'm very upset at the way FFG/Asmodee treated their staff through this, but I also know they don't care because we aren't their customers anymore anyways. It's infuriating.
4 minutes ago, Brunas said:I'm not sure if this is a joke or not or actually just not informed, but... yeah. I'm very upset at the way FFG/Asmodee treated their staff through this, but I also know they don't care because we aren't their customers anymore anyways. It's infuriating.
Yeah that came off a bit more glib than I meant. I really hope they didn't gut the team but it's hard to tell through the upbeat corporate non-information that has come out officially how much this is an on-paper change vs. a real reconfiguration of who is doing what (and who is looking for a new job ).
3 minutes ago, Transmogrifier said:Yeah that came off a bit more glib than I meant. I really hope they didn't gut the team but it's hard to tell through the upbeat corporate non-information that has come out officially how much this is an on-paper change vs. a real reconfiguration of who is doing what (and who is looking for a new job
Oh. Yeah, from what I've gathered from a few public postings, pretty much everyone we (the community in general) interacts with was gutted. Quite a few of the developers too. I don't really want to go into details since it's people's personal lives, but yes, lots of people looking for new jobs
1 hour ago, Brunas said:
Response to all three - yeah, it's really unfortunate that there's no real data for the past... almost 10 months now, sadly. Obviously the cause of that no data is even more sad, but not being able to look at results meaningfully (and in fact having to explicitly try and convince people data is currently not valuable is... jarring. Like here for example, is republic bad? I certainly can't meaningfully contribute, we have one or two events with current points, and on top of that most of those lists were presumably all constructed before the points change, so even that meta is a bizarro once off meta. They might be bad, they might be great, but no matter how much we pour through these couple tournaments, we aren't going to find anything meaningful
I'm not sure if this is a joke or not or actually just not informed, but... yeah. I'm very upset at the way FFG/Asmodee treated their staff through this, but I also know they don't care because we aren't their customers anymore anyways. It's infuriating.
I might be a drunk and wooshing irony over my head but I have to bite it... No data for the past months? Really? I wasn't expecting youof all people to dig to this narrative. After literally YEARS of premier tournaments where data was at best partial, at worst completly inexhistant, the only bright side of covid were tournaments with all lists and matchups recorded and we are dismissing them because...? Can someone please tell me why the **** are we dismissing them? And I didn't even played there, so I'm not biased in that sense.
Is it a small sample size? Of course it's small. Did we ever had a meaningful sample size? **** no. Did that stop anyone before?
Were they attended by a particular kind of players? Yeah of course not everyone is playing online. But it's not like we hadn't the same problems before when, for example, USA tournament were far more reported than european ones. It never particularly bothered anyone before, but suddenly it does now.
I can agree we shouldn't jump to conclusions just because at one of those there were some kind of snowflake, but that's nothing we hadn't already faced times and times before, but why are we startingjust now to dismiss some of the most complete data we ever had about xwing?
Am I missing something? Is it because it's just online? Since I don't see people looking at the few live tournaments that actually happened I doubt that's the real answer, or at least it shouldn't be.
We can obviously talk about how the 3 green generics panic is justified or not after the nantex nerf (by myself I'm more toward it isn't), we can talk about how ******* bad republic is right now (it's ******* bad, LAATs are overpriced and jedis were a dumb design almost impossible to properly balance because they cheat the game) and we can discuss about how broken Sloane is (she's another ******* mistake, you get a great howlrunner effect AND the best control tool in the game with the same cheap upgrade which punish your opponent when he fulfills his objective. Yeah she's always has been, but she was overshadowed by far more degenerate stuff before like squad of legends, 4 phantosm or oli aces just to name a few in faction), but I can't really get this whole "2 spacejames, 4+ galaxies and 1 invitational" provided only meaningless data narrative is beyond me.
Of course it was a meta deeply influenced by nantex wich are now less menacing (albeit they were probably an initiative roll away from winning the only big post nerf tournament) and of course we wil soon get a points update, but this whole attitude of dismissal is triggering me
Sorry for quoting just you, but I consider you one of the most interesting person I talk with in this thread, so my intoxicated rant wouldn't have happened if was just one another fort hyperspace yelling boor saying the same ****
On 11/16/2020 at 8:30 PM, svelok said:For what it's worth:
- Obi-wan was still the most common Republic pilot
- Obi-wan's most played matchups were as follows: # games (Obi's winrate in %)
- Boba Fett: 24 (16.67%)
- Zizi Tlo: 19 (36.84%)
- "Warthog": 16 (43.75%)
- Techno Union Bomber: 15 (33.33%)
- Rey: 15 (33.33%)
- Warthog was the second most common Republic pilot
- Warthog's most played matchups were as follows: # games (:oink:'s winrate in %)
- Zizi Tlo: 30 (26.67%)
- Tallissan Lintra: 23 (26.09%)
- Rey: 22 (18.18%)
- Boba Fett: 21 (42.86%)
- "Warthog": 20 (50.00%)
- Anakin (in the N1) and the i2 Torrent were the most successful of the popular Republic ships (both around an 18% cutrate, compared to 9% for the faction as a whole)
- N1akin's matchups:
- Boba Fett: 14 (21.43%)
- Wedge Antilles: 8 (62.50%)
- Obi-Wan Kenobi: 8 (62.50%)
- Dash Rendar: 7 (85.71%)
- Tallissan Lintra: 6 (33.33%)
- Gold Trooper's matchups:
- Zizi Tlo: 16 (43.75%)
- Tallissan Lintra: 13 (53.85%)
- Rey: 12 (41.67%)
- Boba Fett: 9 (44.44%)
- "Warthog": 8 (62.50%)
- N1akin, Gold Trooper, Wolffe, Deltakin, 104th all performed reasonably well.
- Obi-wan and Warthog did not.
- Ric Olie had a 0% cutrate.
Those stats are awesome, do you also have compiled against non turret non boba ships?
It's funny and maybe even sad that Obi has a negative winrate even against warthog which is probably a terribly overcosted ship that basically win only against obi
9 minutes ago, Sunitsa said:I might be a drunk and wooshing irony over my head but I have to bite it... No data for the past months? Really? I wasn't expecting youof all people to dig to this narrative. After literally YEARS of premier tournaments where data was at best partial, at worst completly inexhistant, the only bright side of covid were tournaments with all lists and matchups recorded and we are dismissing them because...? Can someone please tell me why the **** are we dismissing them? And I didn't even played there, so I'm not biased in that sense.
Is it a small sample size? Of course it's small. Did we ever had a meaningful sample size? **** no. Did that stop anyone before?
Were they attended by a particular kind of players? Yeah of course not everyone is playing online. But it's not like we hadn't the same problems before when, for example, USA tournament were far more reported than european ones. It never particularly bothered anyone before, but suddenly it does now.
I can agree we shouldn't jump to conclusions just because at one of those there were some kind of snowflake, but that's nothing we hadn't already faced times and times before, but why are we startingjust now to dismiss some of the most complete data we ever had about xwing?
Am I missing something? Is it because it's just online? Since I don't see people looking at the few live tournaments that actually happened I doubt that's the real answer, or at least it shouldn't be.
We can obviously talk about how the 3 green generics panic is justified or not after the nantex nerf (by myself I'm more toward it isn't), we can talk about how ******* bad republic is right now (it's ******* bad, LAATs are overpriced and jedis were a dumb design almost impossible to properly balance because they cheat the game) and we can discuss about how broken Sloane is (she's another ******* mistake, you get a great howlrunner effect AND the best control tool in the game with the same cheap upgrade which punish your opponent when he fulfills his objective. Yeah she's always has been, but she was overshadowed by far more degenerate stuff before like squad of legends, 4 phantosm or oli aces just to name a few in faction), but I can't really get this whole "2 spacejames, 4+ galaxies and 1 invitational" provided only meaningless data narrative is beyond me.
Of course it was a meta deeply influenced by nantex wich are now less menacing (albeit they were probably an initiative roll away from winning the only big post nerf tournament) and of course we wil soon get a points update, but this whole attitude of dismissal is triggering me
Sorry for quoting just you, but I consider you one of the most interesting person I talk with in this thread, so my intoxicated rant wouldn't have happened if was just one another fort hyperspace yelling boor saying the same ****
Err, yeah, I think there's some miscommunication here. Since we had a points change, there's been two(it might be one, just coruscant?) tournaments that have data. There wasn't much data for the nantex period so I don't think there a big lessons to learn there, but trying to use that season's data for the post emergency change meta isn't really relevant, as any meta is a chaotic system. It could be that, for example, republic was only trash because Nantexes destroyed them, and now they're the apex predator. That's probably unlikely, but we don't have information either way.
To be more clear - online/covid season had little to no data (it's not that it's low quality, it's just that there isn't really enough) that ranges from hard to impossible to draw conclusions from, while post nantex change is actually zero data. I would be uncomfortable trying to draw conclusions from covid stuff, but would refuse to draw conclusions from post-nerf nantex stuff
Edited by BrunasAlso I don't really understand what's going on. I don't know why you're so upset at me not while I'm not making any interesting claims, but I'm pretty checked out on the game in general at the moment as it's impossible to play, and care a lot more about the people I respect and like a lot getting screwed over by FFG than I do whatever the flavor of the month fight is in here. Apparently it's over whether or not whatever tournaments there have been recently matter? I don't care about whatever it is we're all fighting about at the moment.
Edited by Brunas
