5 minutes ago, Sunitsa said:

They could have done both thought: what stopped them for adding new pilots to reprinted ships while providing an hotshot like pack? That could have coexisted with conversion pack which would still be some very needed good gesture toward the players

Doesn't change this part:

16 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

The mistake is that no one has any reason to be excited for wave releases - we know what 80% of the content is going to be: we know what all the OT faction content is: the chassis abilities, the pilots, the upgrades, and we know it for years.

It's boring, and the devs had to make that decision without and real 2.0 data beyond early tester data (no live, table data from players).

The lack of excitement just means the game suffers a slow death, and the devs can't correct or improve the OT factions. It's a straight lose/lose.

@Sunitsa @GreenDragoon

If we unaggregate the 2017 mindlink data, it quickly looks like one of the most diverse metas in 1.0 (although, i bet that's true of the others if we split apart "palp aces' in 2016). Showing through the top 75% of lists:

What is below the line in 2017:

• there are 2 teroch/fenn/Assaj lists
  • are those truly different enough from parattani? or should those be added to the paratanni numbers?
• there are 3 double scout fenns

That's only 5 lists "below the line", but represents 2.1% of all lists, and 9.4% of all mindlink lists (the 2 teroch/fenn/assaj would represent 10% of paratanni, for also).

11 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

You're right - we're really saying these conversion kits were a mistake.

The mistake is that no one has any reason to be excited for wave releases - we know what 80% of the content is going to be: we know what all the OT faction content is: the chassis abilities, the pilots, the upgrades, and we know it for years.

It's boring, and the devs had to make that decision without and real 2.0 data beyond early tester data (no live, table data from players).

The lack of excitement just means the game suffers a slow death, and the devs can't correct or improve the OT factions. It's a straight lose/lose.

You focus on "i can't play my collection" - I bet you'd quit and come back. Even if I'm wrong, new players would fill the gaps. It happens literally all the time in other games - there's copious data on that.

I mean, I'm not necessarily for or against, but the one big "against" factor is pretty big. A lot of folks spent years and hundreds of dollars on these collections, and asking them to put it in a drawer is a big ask. Folks have favorite ships, and often ones they waited for *ages* to show up in X-Wing.

Counter-argument, in some ways, is that, "Sure, you can fly that gunboat, but it's trash. Wouldn't it be better to wait so that when it gets rereleased, it's actually relevant and up to date with the feature creep of 2e?" Technically, while 100% of stuff is "playable" it isn't really playable-playable.

A lot of it sounds good. In theory, I think a string of Wave Kits rather than single massive Conversion Kit structure might have been better. In practice? Harder to say.

I think a lot of it would feel like 1e, with old ships continually requiring fixes, and folks having to buy new Wave-Kits to keep the early waves relevant. In some ways, B-Wing S-Foils are already doing this, and more of it should happen, but there was something frustrating in 1e where this had to keep happening, and there was something appealing about not doing it in early 2e. Feature-creep if not power-creep happened, though, and the old stuff still feels pretty rusty.

Do new players fill in the gaps? I dunno. Doesn't seem like there was a huge new player swing filling in the gaps in early 2e, or else re-release content would have sold better, and FFG wouldn't have pressed pause on it.

Pretty unscientific, but some of the biggest fans of conversion kits seem like newer players, who can grab a whole mess of stuff at once, hunt for bargain ships, and so forth.

I'm just musing on this, typing in order to focus my own thoughts... and of course it's all academic, since it didn't happen, and 3e doesn't feel remotely close.

2 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

Do new players fill in the gaps? I dunno. Doesn't seem like there was a huge new player swing filling in the gaps in early 2e, or else re-release content would have sold better, and FFG wouldn't have pressed pause on it.

Pretty unscientific, but some of the biggest fans of conversion kits seem like newer players, who can grab a whole mess of stuff at once, hunt for bargain ships, and so forth.

I'm just musing on this, typing in order to focus my own thoughts... and of course it's all academic, since it didn't happen, and 3e doesn't feel remotely close.

The business model literally was anti-new player.

"Hey, new player - all those OT ships are really good. But you gotta buy this conversion kit, AND track down this 1.0 ship that we haven't reprinted.

1.0 ship isn't in stock? Sucks to suck - better hope that ship is competitive garbage.

Getting beat by it from a local? man, that sure suck!"

That... only helps the installed player base. It's actually SUPER unfriendly to new players.

Separately, OT factions players have literally nothing to look forward to. no new ships except weird, bottom-of-the-barrel stuff (and really, not even that). They finally made new-pilot packs (which is great, might I add). But that's it.

So it was a poor business move, and frankly, poor move for players veteran and new.

There's a reason the MTG model has worked.

32 minutes ago, Sunitsa said:

They could have done both thought: what stopped them for adding new pilots to reprinted ships while providing an hotshot like pack? That could have coexisted with conversion pack which would still be some very needed good gesture toward the players

those new pilots would still be tied down by the conversion kit ship designs, and would by trying (and mostly failing) to make a splash in the broader existing card pool

is a card pack interceptor going to generate hype when soontir already has been in every meta to date? do people care about new scyk pilots when we already know what scyks do (take cannons) and theres 17 pilots already? zizi is now in virtually every single resistance list but does anyone care, really, except that its zizi's passive token stacks instead of some different i5 rz2 ability?

Pretty much what @Tlfj200 said. There's no new players generating revenue because FFG bent over backwards for players they already got money from. Bad business move and long term bad for the game's growth.

GW and MtG are going strong and will continue to despite selling the same stuff over and over. And they didn't do it by catering to established players to the detriment of prospective new players.

45 minutes ago, svelok said:

do people care about new scyk pilots when we already know what scyks do (take cannons) and theres 17 pilots already?

I did. Price of the new pilot however makes them unreasonable to put on the table

🤨

I don't understand if I'm a new player or not anymore.

I'm grateful for all of it and excited for new things.

2 hours ago, Tlfj200 said:

@Sunitsa @GreenDragoon

If we unaggregate the 2017 mindlink data, it quickly looks like one of the most diverse metas in 1.0 (although, i bet that's true of the others if we split apart "palp aces' in 2016). Showing through the top 75% of lists:

My point was that the difference between a parattanni and a 3 scouts lists are much more pronounced than palpaces with carnor rather than another ace. You weren't saying "oh I'm playing mindlink again" if you faced 3 scouts and then parattanni. You played very different games. With Palpaces on other hand it was basically the same kill the lambda then try to block an ace and hope he won't roll well regardless of what couple of aces were in the list

2 hours ago, Tlfj200 said:

What is below the line in 2017:

• there are 2 teroch/fenn/Assaj lists
  • are those truly different enough from parattani? or should those be added to the paratanni numbers?
• there are 3 double scout fenns

That's only 5 lists "below the line", but represents 2.1% of all lists, and 9.4% of all mindlink lists (the 2 teroch/fenn/assaj would represent 10% of paratanni, for also).

These are harder to place and I agree that in their case it should be better blurring them in the other two rather than missing them in the mass

1 hour ago, Chumbalaya said:

Pretty much what @Tlfj200 said. There's no new players generating revenue because FFG bent over backwards for players they already got money from. Bad business move and long term bad for the game's growth.

GW and MtG are going strong and will continue to despite selling the same stuff over and over. And they didn't do it by catering to established players to the detriment of prospective new players.

Are you talking about the same MtG that basically bent over and handed lube to backwards players they already got their money from by making a "reserved list" of cards they swear on their own heads they won't ever reprint? That MtG that made some cards impossible to purchase by new players unless they drop multiple hundred of dollars per card on the secondary market? Or maybe we are talking about the MtG that support 3 different eternal format while recently creating another one?

The Magic model is to keep your customer happy because you know they'll pour money into the game again and again and surprise! It's working!

Without conversion kits xwing would have died, there's little doubt about it. Yeah, it could have been easier for new players to get in but why would they do when existing players would be jumping ships?

3 minutes ago, Cuz05 said:

🤨

I don't understand if I'm a new player or not anymore.

I'm grateful for all of it and excited for new things.

You're not.

The only new things are prequel and sequel ships. I hope you like them. (I really do hope you like them).

I think the lack of enthusiasm and ever-shrinking player base involves all the sorts of things people have mentioned here recently, but I also think the biggest culprit is that grown adults can only play the same 3x3 fishbowl death-match so many times. For those who started in Wave 0 of First Edition, they've basically been playing the same game for 7 Years. A dozen factions and a hundred ships per faction wouldn't change that it's always the same game... always flying around a little 3x3 mousepad... always throwing red dice and hoping they get through green dice. Players will tire of any game after long enough, that's the nature of burnout and shifting interests and the 'new hotness' and the like.

The lack of objective/scenario play I think, more than anything, has taken wind out of X-Wing's sails. I know most people in my group drifted away from the game, and are only just starting to flirt with it again after a nice long hiatus.

Objective play would have also solved one of the biggest problems in X-Wing -- the lack of incentive for either player to engage. So much of competitive X-Wing is about jockeying for a favorable engagement. Sure, it's a strategically and tactically interesting exercise playing chicken to see who will eventually cave first and engage the opponent on their terms, but it's also booooring and exhausting, and I suspect most players, especially new players, don't really like it. I got a point near the end of 1.0 where I just started really hating tournaments because the thought of spending 15-30 minutes every game as my opponent and I jockeyed for the best engagement terms was really tedious, repetitive, and uninteresting.

3 minutes ago, Sunitsa said:

The Magic model is to keep your customer happy because you know they'll pour money into the game again and again and surprise! It's working!

You're glossing over a key phrase.

Also, you forget 40k straight up tells their playerbase to buy the same armies over and over again.

So uh, I definitely have some skepticism for you. I'm not saying people wouldn't quit - I'm saying players already quit. Edit: it's called "churn", and WotC quantifies it.

I am also saying barriers to new players is a terrible idea, as is lowering the future hype train.

Oh and another thing: does anyone get excited by stuff like Republic Y or tie Aggressor (back in 1.0)? Being new isn't enough to catch souls

1 minute ago, Sunitsa said:

Oh and another thing: does anyone get excited by stuff like Republic Y or tie Aggressor (back in 1.0)? Being new isn't enough to catch souls

First of all, @Brunas says "how dare you".

Second of all - the republic Y is the only good looking Y, and I stand by it.

3rd of all - all Y wings are boring. Yeah, I said it.

6 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

First of all, @Brunas says "how dare you".

Second of all - the republic Y is the only good looking Y, and I stand by it.

3rd of all - all Y wings are boring. Yeah, I said it.

you know i've tolerated a lot from you, but today is the day it ends. friendship ended with trav
All y wings are beautiful, especially the og rebellion y wing. It's the starfighter that broke the empries back. You know why people aren't excited about x-wing? Because it's not y-wing. The reoublic y wing is the worst looking y wing and the only thing that can save x-wing is this. https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/BTA-NR2_Y-wing_starfighter

13 minutes ago, EBerling said:

I think the lack of enthusiasm and ever-shrinking player base involves all the sorts of things people have mentioned here recently, but I also think the biggest culprit is that grown adults can only play the same 3x3 fishbowl death-match so many times. For those who started in Wave 0 of First Edition, they've basically been playing the same game for 7 Years. A dozen factions and a hundred ships per faction wouldn't change that it's always the same game... always flying around a little 3x3 mousepad... always throwing red dice and hoping they get through green dice. Players will tire of any game after long enough, that's the nature of burnout and shifting interests and the 'new hotness' and the like.


The lack of objective/scenario play I think, more than anything, has taken wind out of X-Wing's sails. I know most people in my group drifted away from the game, and are only just starting to flirt with it again after a nice long hiatus.

I'm pretty sure what saved x-wing for me was my l5r hiatus. Covid has given me a second break that i suspect will get extended by squadrons. I would absolutely recommend anyone that's real mad at the game right now to take a break and come back.

I super agree on the first point as well, some people can stick to a routine endlessly, but for a lot of people, the charm of anything wears off. In the last 12 months i've sold my magic collection, my 40k collection, my viola, and one of my motorcycles, all of those items were core to my identity at one point. I suspect the same will happen with my x-wing collection one day as well.

6 minutes ago, catachanninja said:

you know i've tolerated a lot from you, but today is the day it ends. friendship ended with trav
All y wings are beautiful, especially the og rebellion y wing. It's the starfighter that broke the empries back. You know why people aren't excited about x-wing? Because it's not y-wing. The reoublic y wing is the worst looking y wing and the only thing that can save x-wing is this. https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/BTA-NR2_Y-wing_starfighter

The Y-Wing is the work horse of the rebel fleet. It’s not quick or flashy but it gets the job done. The armor on this ship is extensive, and the shields will protect you from just about anything, which is good, because you won’t be going anywhere fast. The Y-Wing is used mainly as a bomber because it can carry a heavy payload of missiles, torpedoes and bombs. The other important weapon is the topside ION canon, which rather than destroying a target, can disable it for later capture. Our canons have a computer assisted auto-fire feature, so don’t forget that when your in the heat of battle.

Y-wing missions in Rebel Strike were a clunky bummer. Flying a zippy A-Wing, a maneuverable and tanky X-Wing, or even stealing a TIE Hunter or salvaging a Delta 7 were certified neat-o!

2 minutes ago, Hoarder of Garlic Bread said:

Y-wing missions in Rebel Strike were a clunky bummer. Flying a zippy A-Wing, a maneuverable and tanky X-Wing, or even stealing a TIE Hunter or salvaging a Delta 7 were certified neat-o!

There's a reason that was the most poorly received Rogue Squadron game.

16 minutes ago, jagsba said:

The Y-Wing is the work horse of the rebel fleet. It’s not quick or flashy but it gets the job done. The armor on this ship is extensive, and the shields will protect you from just about anything, which is good, because you won’t be going anywhere fast. The Y-Wing is used mainly as a bomber because it can carry a heavy payload of missiles, torpedoes and bombs. The other important weapon is the topside ION canon, which rather than destroying a target, can disable it for later capture. Our canons have a computer assisted auto-fire feature, so don’t forget that when your in the heat of battle.

Jesse is my best friend now

13 minutes ago, catachanninja said:

There's a reason that was the most poorly received Rogue Squadron game.

Too much Y Wing. If you want to space blimp, Desert Bus is a good start.

Even then, it was well-received.

2 minutes ago, Hoarder of Garlic Bread said:

Too much Y Wing. If you want to space blimp, Desert Bus is a good start.

Even then, it was well-received.

The y wing missions were my favorites in the first two rogue squadrons, i liked bombing and hard mode dog fighting and having health

War's over, imp.

13 minutes ago, catachanninja said:

The y wing missions were my favorites in the first two rogue squadrons, i liked bombing and hard mode dog fighting and having health

Fair enough. I liked the exhilaration of having regenerating concussion missiles with A's, but one mistake and you're at half health. Or if you're doing PVP, you can dodge munitions but 1 hit and dead.

The b wing close foils and have munitions auto miss you exploit was dumb

I definitely think FFG is realizing that a lot of their business model that is intended to be player friendly (see: LCGs, conversion kits) ends up sabotaging those same games, which ultimately isn't player-friendly. They seem to be learning and being more business savvy recently (see: Keyforge, change in how X-Wing 2.0 is being handled, shutting down Destiny, Thrones, restructuring L5R) but it's definitely been a learning process for them and I wouldn't be surprised if X-Wing 2.0 ultimately collapses due to early mistakes. They seem to be in the process of a course correction, and it so far seems promising, but Covid is really making it hard to keep a tabletop game afloat in general. I've definitely shifted my own spending away from X-Wing and towards more solo-friendly ventures (Arkham, Legion) this year, and we'll see how 2021 goes.