26 minutes ago, gennataos said:

I’m not sure who’s qualified to speak to whether something is a problem or is too good. I’m pretty sure the primary criteria is:

- Be on a podcast

- Be a guest on a podcast

Yep. Think that’s the concise list.

Son of a *****, just realized I’ve been a guest on podcasts. I did it!

Scroll up to where I said nantex might be a problem.

#makeTenchoavalidlist

I do not like FOCHO nor do I believe the 200 pt cap to be needed to be broken. But ****, why is it the spam that ignores blocks and stuff that gets undercosted?

As a small consolation, Hondo crew doesn't care about bugs. Give an evade (because their bar is 2 actions only) to one you're not shooting because there's no way you'll shoot 6 things at the same time at all and jam the one that you pray to Duncan doesn't natty and dies instead.

Terrex tricks might be nice, but I think I'll probably defect to Sloane Imperials for Ryloth just because I'm no good with Rebels or Resistance, I'm not a fan of what Republic has that's great against Nantex, Scum is just the faction I clown around with for a good time, and First Order will certainly be good with diet Palp, but not good enough against Nantex. Warthog looks to be a cool ship that flips off initiative kill things, but I'd have to learn how to play Republic outside just buying the ships because I like the aesthetic.

Sloane isn't a hard counter, but that's good because hard counters, even Oli's Dash list, have trouble against other good lists. She just counters enough while being flexible. But as Corellia showed, even that's not enough.

@gennataos Based on that info of your warning, it appears the council of sequel-faction Marks you lead has reached its conclusion back in early August after Bohan debuted that list in the first BOTS tourney and lost only to poor variance to Holo + 4SF: they are scary. I felt like Tim the Enchanter when I was blogging/telling locals about it pre-Corellia and how even my Seppies were brushing it off as "just a rabbit!"

15 minutes ago, gamblertuba said:

With an 8 point drop on 6 ships, that's 248 points to play with.

and they were hilariously bad, so what does that even mean? if the true price tm in your judgement is 210 or 220, what does 250 have to do with anything? 250 points of 50pt tie fighters wouldnt be a lot of ship/s

13 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Out of the rest, only 5/22 don't bring i5-6.

this would probably mean something, but 17/22 is basically the exact normal overall rate of bringing i5+ in general

random saturday thought:

so I continue to think Nantex are an average good list (i.e. mid A-tier, a strong list but not oppressive or "a problem") but I tried flying a Z-95 swarm against them today and it was miserable.

Things that made the game unenjoyable:
- having about the same number of shots with an 8-ship list vs a 5-ship list because of tactical bumps and initiative kills
- hardly doing any damage because of a combination of initiative kills, 2 atk vs 3 agi, gravitic deflection, and muh haunted dice

I have had similar experiences with Z-95s throughout second edition, and it's far less fun against Boba or Imp Aces etc. than it was against nantex.

I find the archetype of Z swarm fun and have wanted to play it for years now but I lose so terribly and get to play the game so little every time I try that they remain benched for me.

So anyway my question for the group is: what do you do to make Z-95s (and similar ships) fun? I firmly believe removing initiative kills from the game is a good move, but there's other options I guess. Increasing points across the board would work, or decreasing Zs to a ridiculous amount like 15 and removing the 8 ship cap. Alternately, add a core rule to the game that if you are not depleted, when you perform a bullseye attack and roll less than three dice, add a die. Or something else, idk.

I just want to play Z swarms but this game is so skewed against the evil robot smooth-brained NPC generics towards the noble honorable wrinkle-brained skilled aces that I can't play what I like and have a fun time so I just give in and play aces instead.

Not trying to be a bummer, just wondering if people think it's ok for generic swarms to, with a couple exceptions, not be fun. I'm ok I guess if your answer is that I shouldn't want to play generic Z's and they should be removed from both hyperspace and extended and used only as the AI in solo play gamemodes and things like that.

6 minutes ago, svelok said:

and they were hilariously bad, so what does that even mean? if the true price tm in your judgement is 210 or 220, what does 250 have to do with anything? 250 points of 50pt tie fighters wouldnt be a lot of ship/s

They were unexplored. People thought they were hilariously bad only because they didn't escape the Gravitic/Ensnare trap.

-Edit-

I'd consider an I4 slightly flimsier Resistance A-wing with more rotate options, block invulnerability, and a death bullseye to be about equal to the RZ-2, probably along the lines of the I3 options. *Checks to see the cost of I1 Resistance A Wing* :32 pt. Oh ****!

1 minute ago, Hoarder of Garlic Bread said:

They were unexplored. People thought they were hilariously bad only because they didn't escape the Gravitic/Ensnare trap.

one of my local players, who I think of as a good player, experimented with various ensnareless nantex swarmy lists extensively after ensnare got yote from the fort. It was sad to watch.

29 minutes ago, Kyle Ren said:

one of my local players, who I think of as a good player, experimented with various ensnareless nantex swarmy lists extensively after ensnare got yote from the fort. It was sad to watch.

Good share and fair point: it reflects what was going on with one of my locals. But I'm quoting you here to add such that people don't take this out of the larger statistical context of the player base. There probably were many people who did decently on a local scene with the previous points Nantex. Anecdotally, I've seen a few Vassal games with 5 Nanteces, most with Crack and Predator IIRC, and merely thought of them as an interesting alternative to Resistance A Wings. Like, the Big Earner is straight up better than the Conniver's Kunai in a lot of situations for the Spy in TF2, but it's only an interesting alternative because the Kunai is so much easier to use, even if its skill ceiling is a tad lower.

28 minutes ago, Kyle Ren said:

so I continue to think Nantex are an average good list (i.e. mid A-tier, a strong list but not oppressive or "a problem")

what then is an S-tier or high A-tier list? Are they all oppressive?

30 minutes ago, Kyle Ren said:

so I continue to think Nantex are an average good list (i.e. mid A-tier, a strong list but not oppressive or "a problem")

You’re on a podcast. Credentials verified!

Following FFG costing as of now:

Onyx Squad Aces are now 52 pt. Adv. Sensors dropped to 6 pt.

(58 + 6)* 3= 192 pt, leaving 8 pt to flavor.

OnYxS mUsT bE cOmIcAlLy OvErCoSteD bEcAuSe NoBoDy FlIeS tHeM.

-edit- don't know why I was adding outmaneuver to each. You can go lower and more NPE if they all have the 4 pt Marksmanship Autoblasters. That leaves only 186 pt spent!

I’m uh

trying to avoid the whole nantex thing because people seemed to misunderstand me last time, and despite what it seems I’m genuinely not here to start fights

the point was to clarify that I didn’t have fun but it’s because Z’s are flaming trash not Nantex are too good

Just now, Kyle Ren said:

I’m uh

trying to avoid the whole nantex thing because people seemed really heated last time

the point was to clarify that I didn’t have fun but it’s because Z’s are flaming trashy not Nantex are too good

Tracers and decent missiles will make Z's better. The problem is the opportunity cost won't go away because the alternatives will get better.

It's what a lot of TIE/FO's with great abilities for the wrong chassis are dealing with. Gideon dramatically improves Trickshotless Midnight as well as TIE Malarus and Static, but he also makes the efficient Epsilons and Omegas even more efficient without much downside. Static and Midnight still dream of the TIE/BA and Malarus' TIE ability wants the likes of a Silencer or even an SF.

4 minutes ago, Hoarder of Garlic Bread said:

Tracers and decent missiles will make Z's better.

I wanna believe but tracers require locks which is gonna be really hard to line up, and init kills still go brr 😕

1 hour ago, gennataos said:

Son of a *****, just realized I’ve been a guest on podcasts. I did it!

Scroll up to where I said nantex might be a problem.

#neverscrollup

43 minutes ago, Kyle Ren said:

I wanna believe but tracers require locks which is gonna be really hard to line up, and init kills still go brr 😕

Init kills go brr, but warthog go BRRRRRRRRRRRT. Torrent synced console missle spam for great justice!

1 hour ago, gennataos said:

Son of a *****, just realized I’ve been a guest on podcasts. I did it!

Scroll up to where I said nantex might be a problem.

wait which podcast?!

1 hour ago, catachanninja said:

wait which podcast?!

I’m pretty sure it was the Midwest Scrubcast

3 hours ago, catachanninja said:

wait which podcast?!

And OCX! It counts!

Fun with top16:

7/8 separatists advanced. One Nantex lost - because of a mirror sep vs sep match.

TOP 16
- Grievous+4nantex vs sciame sep da 8
- 6 nantex vs vader/fel/5th bro
- decisloane+4tie vs reapersloane+5aggressor
- luminara/wolffe/babyAni/padme vs holo+3silencer
- 6 nantex vs anakin+4torrent
- 6 nantex vs wedge/luke/ap5
- rey/zizi/tallissan vs grievous+2hyena+3vulture
- 5thBro/7thSister+2phantom vs 6 nantex

1 minute ago, GreenDragoon said:

Fun with top16:

7/8 separatists advanced. One Nantex lost - because of a mirror match.

it was a droid swarm, but yeah sep only lost to sep

And top 8

- grievous +4nantex
- 6 nantex
- reapersloane+ 5aggressor
- holo+3silencer
- 6 nantex
- 6 nantex
- grievous + 2hyena + 3 vulture
- seventh&fifth+ 2 phantoms

37 minutes ago, Sunitsa said:

And top 8

- grievous +4nantex
- 6 nantex
- reapersloane+ 5aggressor
- holo+3silencer
- 6 nantex
- 6 nantex
- grievous + 2hyena + 3 vulture
- seventh&fifth+ 2 phantoms

This is fine. It’s only an online event, people aren’t really trying. It’s only one of two events, this data set isn’t meaningful.

1 minute ago, gennataos said:

This is fine. It’s only an online event, people aren’t really trying. It’s only one of two events, this data set isn’t meaningful.

All players jousted

16 minutes ago, gennataos said:

This is fine. It’s only an online event, people aren’t really trying. It’s only one of two events, this data set isn’t meaningful.

14 minutes ago, Sunitsa said:

All players jousted

Can we also add a "it's just europeans anyway" in there to get the bingo?

9 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Can we also add a "it's just europeans anyway" in there to get the bingo?

You guys love your 2-ship lists. Skews the meta.