5 minutes ago, Do I need a Username said:

Wedge! Wes! Luke! Wedge! Wes! Luke! Wedge! Wes! Luke!

ARCSONTOPLIVEFREEDONTJOINARCSONTOPLIVEFREEDONTJOINARCSONTOPLIVEFREEDONTJOIN?

5 minutes ago, AT Leader said:

I know I am fooling myself, but I am holding out hope that the ‘X-Wing Fix’ makes a Luke/Wes/Wedge that will fit this mold. Or maybe a new A-Wing with 3 reds, Boost/BR to fill the gap ?

Does INAU’s post count as ninja-ing this one?

The day that Rebel Trip Aces is the best list in X-Wing is the day that the internet will stop existing.

1 minute ago, Boom Owl said:

ARCSONTOPLIVEFREEDONTJOINARCSONTOPLIVEFREEDONTJOINARCSONTOPLIVEFREEDONTJOIN?

Does flying Rey count? And Assaj is totally and arced ship! Right...she even has a token to show you where...*time for introspection*...I think I am just lying to myself.

2 minutes ago, AT Leader said:

Does flying Rey count? And Assaj is totally and arced ship! Right...she even has a token to show you where...*time for introspection*...I think I am just lying to myself.

Assaj is just a better Wookie.

Search your feelings.

You know it to be true.

*Rey totally counts!

1 minute ago, Boom Owl said:

The day that Rebel Trip Aces is the best list in X-Wing is the day that the internet will stop existing.

I don’t know whether to give this a laugh or a cry face...

1 minute ago, AT Leader said:

I don’t know whether to give this a laugh or a cry face...

Thats the specific scenario that the Confused face was created for.

2 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

Thats the specific scenario that the Confused face was created for.

Of course! I can’t believe I didn’t see that! Solution submitted!

You Sir, are a gentleman, and a scholar! Or at least more aware of the reactions then I am.

6 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

Assaj is just a better Wookie.

Search your feelings.

You know it to be true.

*Rey totally counts!

It is true.

Rey does feel like she is masquerading as an arced ship. Maybe it is because she just Fat Han’ned me the other day.

We're getting a wave of only arced ships right now (until FFG nuts up and shows us the Scum falcon their holding hostage) with the U-Wing, X-Wing and Tie Reaper.

so that's definite,y a step in the right direction for this game... right?

i mean, there's definitely nothing broken that yet to be fully realised in those packs, right?

right?

19 minutes ago, Quadjumper King said:

We're getting a wave of only arced ships right now (until FFG nuts up and shows us the Scum falcon their holding hostage) with the U-Wing, X-Wing and Tie Reaper.

so that's definite,y a step in the right direction for this game... right?

i mean, there's definitely nothing broken that yet to be fully realised in those packs, right?

right?

I mean the first rouge one wave was fairly balanced so I hold hope.

2 minutes ago, Do I need a Username said:

I mean the first rouge one wave was fairly balanced so I hold hope.

"Rebellions are built on hope"

Also here's my regulation issue "I agree" for the day

Page 2

Alright, so, in lack of content, I am going to post my "wishlist" for nerfs in order of importance (don't nerf the thing below unless the thing above has been already).

Rebel Fenn (Other Coordinate ships haven't proven as bad)

Bombs

Regen (Miranda and R2-D2 specifically)

High HP ships with the native evade action and some evade dice (about 2)

Reinforce

TLT

Harpoon

Stealth device on Soontir

PTL+AS

I probably missed somethings, because I haven't played them recently. Some fo these enrfs don't have to be drastic, for example, erttaing the harpoon condition to be guaranteed and never cause a damage would be fine.

I banned the top meta this weekend for a kit tournament and it was fun. A player who had sold off all his stuff a year ago won with a borrowed Wedge/Airen/Horton list and I came 2nd with a 50pt Stridan (and 2 TLT aggressors. I'd never flown more than 1 TLT before... They are "efficient" to say the least). It was almost as fun as the random list tournament and we will do it again!

My son went 0-3 and got the last round bye with a list he invented that same morning (Vynder and Oicunn). That was super sad But we had the discussion about the "pillars of X-wing" on the ride home and how Oicunn is not really a jouster and Vynder shouldn't just arc dodge, so it'll be a (painful) learning experience.

1 hour ago, drjkel said:

I banned the top meta this weekend for a kit tournament and it was fun.

For the masses: what did you ban?

One of the things about alternate formats is that a lot of the time they're good not because they're actually good but just because they're new and different. The best times in X-wing tend to be right after a new release that has cards powerful enough to use but not so OP that a game breaking combo is instantly discovered. Then inevitably the meta gets solved, a handful of degenerate lists rise to the top, and we all hate the game again. The problem, or maybe not problem so much as just the way it is, is that releases don't come often enough to maintain the game in that fun state. And those releases need to be at least relatively balanced in order to both make a splash and not invalidate the impact of later releases.

Whereas alt formats, as long as their short lived, can be fairly broken. Everyone will scramble to figure out new lists, recreating part of the fun of a new release, and inevitably if it lasts long enough someone will find a degenerate broken combo that dominates that ruleset. But that's OK because then you can just retire that format and come up with a new one. That's why I think, as laudable as the intentions are, all of the complete revamps like the community mod and objectives are, because they're static, doomed to the same fate of certain things being inevitably broken as the main ruleset. They may be different things than vanilla, but something will end up being the boogie man in those formats too.

2 hours ago, drjkel said:

I banned the top meta this weekend for a kit tournament and it was fun. A player who had sold off all his stuff a year ago won with a borrowed Wedge/Airen/Horton list and I came 2nd with a 50pt Stridan (and 2 TLT aggressors. I'd never flown more than 1 TLT before... They are "efficient" to say the least). It was almost as fun as the random list tournament and we will do it again!

My son went 0-3 and got the last round bye with a list he invented that same morning (Vynder and Oicunn). That was super sad But we had the discussion about the "pillars of X-wing" on the ride home and how Oicunn is not really a jouster and Vynder shouldn't just arc dodge, so it'll be a (painful) learning experience.

Ban stuff until Vynder+Oicunn is good!

1 hour ago, Makaze said:

Whereas alt formats, as long as their short lived, can be fairly broken. Everyone will scramble to figure out new lists, recreating part of the fun of a new release, and inevitably if it lasts long enough someone will find a degenerate broken combo that dominates that ruleset. But that's OK because then you can just retire that format and come up with a new one. That's why I think, as laudable as the intentions are, all of the complete revamps like the community mod and objectives are, because they're static, doomed to the same fate of certain things being inevitably broken as the main ruleset. They may be different things than vanilla, but something will end up being the boogie man in those formats too.

I'd also venture to say some alt formats just encourage people to take something the players know as being inefficient and/or poor, but do it anyway just because the format itself isn't really generating anything useful beyond fun.

I imagine it's only a matter of time before somebody comes up with something that breaks the Original Trilogy format. I haven't seen anything oppressively powerful yet, but there are definitely signs people are trying to break it.

54 minutes ago, Makaze said:

One of the things about alternate formats is that a lot of the time they're good not because they're actually good but just because they're new and different. The best times in X-wing tend to be right after a new release that has cards powerful enough to use but not so OP that a game breaking combo is instantly discovered. Then inevitably the meta gets solved, a handful of degenerate lists rise to the top, and we all hate the game again. The problem, or maybe not problem so much as just the way it is, is that releases don't come often enough to maintain the game in that fun state. And those releases need to be at least relatively balanced in order to both make a splash and not invalidate the impact of later releases.

Whereas alt formats, as long as their short lived, can be fairly broken. Everyone will scramble to figure out new lists, recreating part of the fun of a new release, and inevitably if it lasts long enough someone will find a degenerate broken combo that dominates that ruleset. But that's OK because then you can just retire that format and come up with a new one. That's why I think, as laudable as the intentions are, all of the complete revamps like the community mod and objectives are, because they're static, doomed to the same fate of certain things being inevitably broken as the main ruleset. They may be different things than vanilla, but something will end up being the boogie man in those formats too.

I agree. I have thoroughly enjoyed many of the alternate formats I have played but, sadly, support is often short lived. Without a dedicated team to collect data, which is often in short supply for alternative formats, analyze it and adapt the format consistently and pro-actively an alternative format is doomed to fall into disrepair.

I agree that the meta will always have a boogie-man, no matter the format. The question is when is a 'boogie man' acceptable? I have no problem with a 'best list' as long as it is not 'dominant'. I don't even know what makes a list 'dominant' enough to justify a nerf. Is it % field? % win rate? Ability to 'dumpster' an archetype? Assessment as a NPE? Obviously that is going to change based on perspective, but in terms of x-wing, when does a list/card need nerf-ing would be a good answer to know, or believe.

8 minutes ago, AT Leader said:

I don't even know what makes a list 'dominant' enough to justify a nerf.

Just highlighting this because this may come back to being the root problem in all formats. Actually, I think I've heard Travis say the same thing in the past. The way the game is designed, and the way it's managed, everything seems to be based on "feels" rather than hard numbers. "Feels" are hard to manage because what feels bad for me, might be fine for you.

And boy, do I feel bad right now. Ironically, I haven't faced a Fenn/Ghost yet on the table.

1 hour ago, Makaze said:

One of the things about alternate formats is that a lot of the time they're good not because they're actually good but just because they're new and different. The best times in X-wing tend to be right after a new release that has cards powerful enough to use but not so OP that a game breaking combo is instantly discovered. Then inevitably the meta gets solved, a handful of degenerate lists rise to the top, and we all hate the game again. The problem, or maybe not problem so much as just the way it is, is that releases don't come often enough to maintain the game in that fun state. And those releases need to be at least relatively balanced in order to both make a splash and not invalidate the impact of later releases.

Whereas alt formats, as long as their short lived, can be fairly broken. Everyone will scramble to figure out new lists, recreating part of the fun of a new release, and inevitably if it lasts long enough someone will find a degenerate broken combo that dominates that ruleset. But that's OK because then you can just retire that format and come up with a new one. That's why I think, as laudable as the intentions are, all of the complete revamps like the community mod and objectives are, because they're static, doomed to the same fate of certain things being inevitably broken as the main ruleset. They may be different things than vanilla, but something will end up being the boogie man in those formats too.

This is why I think some sort of limited draft format would be ideal (i.e. the TO creates a limited subset of Pilots/Upgrades, players are given access to a random sample of that limited set and choose from what they are presented with). Each draft is its own unique self-contained meta puzzle to solve and with the randomness/luck elements involved it's more likely that the lists will be closer in power level and certainly a lot more varied. The main issue with draft is the admin side of things is extensive and the drafting process adds considerably to the event time. You're going to want to cap player count at something like 8 players or else you're going to quickly hit logistical issues.

2 hours ago, AT Leader said:

For the masses: what did you ban?

These pilots were banned. Fun fact: all Scurrg and Auzituk pilots made it to the top in the timeframe we looked at.

The Juggler is also up and missing a single list, it was standard Soontir, VI Zeta Leader and some form of VI Vynder, I know he had ion pulse missiles and no harpoons, but I'm blanking on the rest. I just celebrated popping Soontir's stealth device with my first Hux TLT and cared nothing about what happened next.

The methodology was simple and public: Starting on January 31 and every Wednesday until the tournament, I would open meta-wing and select the start date at December 1 (roughly wave 12/13). The top 20 pilot for every faction is then added to the ban list if they aren't already. No pilot gets unbanned, no matter how low they go. I wanted to just do Top 50, but half of that was rebels, which seemed unbalanced. The Google Sheet is color-coded, so you can see what made it's way to the top 20 at some point. Rebels kept getting new stuff banned as it bubbled up.

I was expecting Fel and TIE Phantoms and they were indeed there. That's why I had a Hux Stridan with 2 TLT carriers I was trying to convince my son to run Fel himself (he loves Fel) along with a VI Rexler and VI Duchess to deal with Phantoms, but he wanted none of it!

It's still highly breakable, mostly by taking the old hotness (that wasn't nerfed) back out and tricking it out with new tools. But then, you more or less know what to expect too.

I much, much preferred the random list tournament, but I doubt everyone was honest about how random their list was. The rules for that one were: You get to run Fab's squad generator twice and you have to pick one of those 6 lists. The only change you can do is remove upgrades to get a turret-less HWK a turret, because I'm not a monster, and adding free upgrades to empty slots (Vaksais are not always filled on Fab's and an empty mod is begging for guidance chips). The winner was a sensor jammer IG-B with a cannon, TLT Palob (removed a cheap M3-A to get the turret and a massive bid), and one of the named Zs. That list did not feel random, but could very well be, I guess.

I'm glad to see someone taking action against the Z-95 problem.

14 minutes ago, kris40k said:

I'm glad to see someone taking action against the Z-95 problem.

Blair is solely to blame for that ship inching its way into the top 20 of rebel ships. I set the rules and I followed them, even against an outlier

I'm just glad I can still fly two defenders with TIE/D. That list makes me smile every time.