Apparently Vassal League is the only acceptable datasource for this game. Huh

On some unrelated notes I'd love to see Etakin Skywalker have both light and dark side traits purely for thematic purposes. Maybe fly him exclusively with Palp and V Wing's for that early empire.

28 minutes ago, Hoarder of Garlic Bread said:

On some unrelated notes I'd love to see Etakin Skywalker have both light and dark side traits purely for thematic purposes. Maybe fly him exclusively with Palp and V Wing's for that early empire.

.....

-stops painting Theta class print in imperial grey-

25 minutes ago, Cuz05 said:

.....

-stops painting Theta class print in imperial grey-

1 hour ago, Hoarder of Garlic Bread said:

Apparently Vassal League is the only acceptable datasource for this game. Huh

Yea nah...its not super useful....its just the only available datasource for hyperspace at the moment.

4 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

I argue not even then. 7 factions with tons of viable lists, 2 different formats. That gives enough to see trends, but the days of conclusive data are gone. A few hyperspace trials or nationals/SOS won't change that.

So, maybe in a year or two, when the points changes begin to level off (fewer and fewer surprising/drastic changes).

I agree about permutation saturation.

There's gotta be dozens of A-tier squads that haven't even had the chance to surface with the existing ships, let alone all the new stuff coming out.

Really exciting times for X-Wing in general..... Too bad there's nowhere to play for reals.

I hope FFG OP will go overboard on the next store kits to give the game a shot in the arm once people are generally playing local gain.

On 8/14/2020 at 7:55 PM, Hoarder of Garlic Bread said:

I'm fine with 29 pt A's. The ship ability > TIE/V1 action bar and the blues are better (faster and more of them, like a proper interceptor).

What A's need are a way to crank dice counts outside missiles because they don't have force or Jendon. Crackshot can only carry you so far, unless you don't expect too much dps out of them. Maybe Tycho will come out with an ability that adds a result or a die for bullseye.

Either we compare the Baron with the Phoenix or we compare the Baron with the Green. Both make the RZ-1 look bad. I mean, both make the RZ-1 look really, really bad. Vectored thrusters is fine, but linked roll-focus is arguably better anyway, especially at I1-3. At initiative 3, the Green is paying 4 extra points to swap a sensor for a second talent, which is a very bad trade. At initiative 1, the Phoenix is losing a sensor slot and two initiative points and still paying an extra point for it, which is an even worse trade.

The proposed fix is also the exact opposite of what A-Wings need. 2-dice primaries are cool. They should stay cool. The A-Wing is not a boomy ship. It's not a TIE Interceptor. It's a zoomy harrassment ship with missiles for spike damage when it needs it and talents for cool shenanigans. Intimidation Phoenixes are my favorite, but they currently cost 32 which is way too much to take over something else (doesn't stop me though; they're in every rebel list I fly, and probably why I lose a lot). Crack and other talents are priced appropriately. The A-Wing literally just needs to be cheaper.

And sure, more high-initiative pilots will absolutely help. I don't want them to just be a bunch of L'ulos though. I'd much rather see things that play with stress or reposition than just "get moar dice lol."

Sorry to beat a dead horse but come on devs you really flopped on this one.

2 hours ago, ClassicalMoser said:

The A-Wing literally just needs to be cheaper.

What about the span between our filler ships?

Bandits are 22 at I1.

Talas are 24 at I2 with a talent tax.

Phoenix at 29 for at I1 with a talent.

These RZ1s could easily go down to 27 and still prevent 6 Snap Shots from spamming the table (27+7pt snap=34, x6 =204) which is probably all they're trying to prevent anyway.

We'd get 6 Snap A's if they were 26 pts with seven pt Snap Shots.

_______

Edit...

I guess the devs aren't concerned about 6 Snap Talas --- at I2.

Yeah, that sounds fair.........…...

27/29 feels really good for generic RZ-1, given 28 point Barons.

Phoenix at 2 points more than a TIE/fo or Scyk seems like a reasonable gain for the boost action and the ship ability--given the context that it's still a 2/3/(4) ship.

Green at 1 point more than a Baron seems fair. I'm not convinced they're necessarily better. They've got a faster dial and can boost off any action, but the v1's blue 1s offer a different advantage, as does the fact they can link roll to focus, which an A-Wing can't. They're pretty different.

There may be some other similar ships that also deserve cuts, too, but that's another discussion.

2 hours ago, ClassicalMoser said:

The proposed fix is also the exact opposite of what A-Wings need. 2-dice primaries are cool. They should stay cool. The A-Wing is not a boomy ship. It's not a TIE Interceptor. It's a zoomy harrassment ship with missiles for spike damage when it needs it and talents for cool shenanigans.

This. I don't want the character of RZ-1s to change, but they just need to be cheaper.

Another possibility: Vaksai-ish. A-Wings getting cheaper missiles and maybe talents could go a long way. I understand the arguments that A-Wings shouldn't get too cheap, since that'd really undercut Z-95s, but they clearly need more compensation for that price premium than they're currently getting. One way to split the difference would be to make their toys cheaper. Final build price would go down, even if a plain A-Wing didn't.

Once we get all our floors (base chassis) balanced properly against TF Drones / TIElns which might be another wave or two... (we're pretty close already minus new releases), hopefully we'll see the compression of mid-range generics to match that.

I'd love to see I2-I4 become much more viable, and that'll mean their points being generally VERY close to the floor generics, because you're trading reliable blocking against the field to unlock talents/repo-agency/PS-kills and target lock agency (which all have different value based on ship abilities and action bars).

That last part about locks is something we haven't had a lot of data to garner a reasonable value across many ships, especially since most munitions haven't had use even on their intended 2-red platforms.

_______

Edit:

I think it was @svelok who suggested that I1 and I3 drones cost the SAME points...

Network aside, this ship literally trades blocking at I1 for better lock acquisition at I3.

There's no difference in survivability, but you might nab the occasional PS-kill with the I3 Sep.

I think this conversation deserves attention especially on fragile/inflexible ships like Ywings and Z95s.

same cost

6 minutes ago, Kyle Ren said:

Doesn't have a pilot with force on the same chassis competing for the slot that was only 3 points (2 updates ago), then 5 points (last update), more expensive resulting in it not seeing play... BotE to Inq spread is now 8 points. Both should be shifted up a couple of points in my opinion, but FFG also considers what is being played, not just the spread and power level of a single pilot relative to other factions.

seems like a lot of love for the baron of the empire right now. what are some lists that you think have potential with it.

Just now, battlestarbill said:

seems like a lot of love for the baron of the empire right now. what are some lists that you think have potential with it.

seven of them

I enjoyed running Vader Duchess Baron Baron Baron. Barons are really fun.

I like how they don't have purple or control (besides being good blockers) and how they aren't useless at i3 while still needing to point at stuff.

Boost + Focus Gang. Zoom Zoom.

So to clarify, Barons are my sons and I love them

I really like flying seven of them and like, it's strong but I really highly doubt it takes the meta by storm. I was streaming flycasual AI vs flycasual AI games on my twitch earlier today because that's what five months of quarantine has done to me, I reckon. Anyway, I watched Boba thonkjoust seven barons and take no damage, so I think they're gonna be fine, even in the fort where they can really shine.

More my point is that I feel like there's something very wrong with the game that these things are so cheap you can fly nearly a full ocho of them.

Basically I am once again advocating for actually nerfing aces instead of just turning the standard format into Epic. Playing 175 point games is an acceptable patch I guess if it's too much of a feelsbadman to ever increase points a meaningful amount on anything

39 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

I enjoyed running Vader Duchess Baron Baron Baron. Barons are really fun.

I like how they don't have purple or control (besides being good blockers) and how they aren't useless at i3 while still needing to point at stuff.

Boost + Focus Gang. Zoom Zoom.

that is the same list i had settled on for vassal league after thew points dropped.

24 minutes ago, Kyle Ren said:

So to clarify, Barons are my sons and I love them

I really like flying seven of them and like, it's strong but I really highly doubt it takes the meta by storm. I was streaming flycasual AI vs flycasual AI games on my twitch earlier today because that's what five months of quarantine has done to me, I reckon. Anyway, I watched Boba thonkjoust seven barons and take no damage, so I think they're gonna be fine, even in the fort where they can really shine.

More my point is that I feel like there's something very wrong with the game that these things are so cheap you can fly nearly a full ocho of them.

Basically I am once again advocating for actually nerfing aces instead of just turning the standard format into Epic. Playing 175 point games is an acceptable patch I guess if it's too much of a feelsbadman to ever increase points a meaningful amount on anything

I've been feeling the hurt of the "race towards the bottom". he meta just seems like it's shifting to 5-8 ships. This would be kind of annoying in general, but 2.0 has also had issues with games going to time.

40 minutes ago, MasterShake2 said:

I've been feeling the hurt of the "race towards the bottom". he meta just seems like it's shifting to 5-8 ships. This would be kind of annoying in general, but 2.0 has also had issues with games going to time.

I disagree.

The absolute vast majority of players still run 2-5 ships. 80% of the field for Vassal Leagues 298 lists are 2-5 Ships so far. 20% of the field was 6-8 Ships. Real swarms are 7-8 ships and that made up only 10% of lists. And thats with far fewer time crisis Ace Point Fortress pilots than Extended has access to.

That 80/20 or 90/10 rule holds up super consistently across all formats and was roughly the case for all of the Space Jams last point cycle. There are a small handful of 5-8 Ship lists that perform well in terms of cut rates. Every cycle there are lots of 2-5 ship lists that perform well to with equal or better cut rates. 2.0 is a good enough game that there is room for all of it. For me the game is at its best at slightly higher ship counts with fewer upgrades. 2.0 has by no means become "swarm-wing" or "beef-wing". I wouldn't expect it to be or ask that it be either because the low ship count stuff is fun to. Current and prior points certainly have not caused a shift towards 7-8 ship lists. Real swarms are 7-8 ships and those despite all the discussion are still only 10% of the field in general.

5-8 ship lists being relevant is 2.0 working as intended. Even when they are relevant the vast majority of everyone's games across formats will be against the normal 2-5 ship stuff.

25 minutes ago, MasterShake2 said:

This would be kind of annoying in general, but 2.0 has also had issues with games going to time.

😒 This is more an indication of you having the wrong win condition when you play a game than a flaw with the game...

59 minutes ago, Kyle Ren said:

Basically I am once again advocating for actually nerfing aces instead of just turning the standard format into Epic. Playing 175 point games is an acceptable patch I guess if it's too much of a feelsbadman to ever increase points a meaningful amount on anything

Count me in on Team Plus 10% to all points

41 minutes ago, MasterShake2 said:

I've been feeling the hurt of the "race towards the bottom". he meta just seems like it's shifting to 5-8 ships. This would be kind of annoying in general, but 2.0 has also had issues with games going to time.

so this is kinda three different statements

1. the race towards the bottom, yes, this is an adjacent opinion to my point, there is sort of a deflation of points going on. That being said, I don't think it has to do with ship count, time and time again breaking points get crossed and it doesn't matter (look at three resistance Falcons suddenly fitting last season as an example).

2. the shifting meta. measuring the meta while real competitive x-wing doesn't exist is difficult due to the low quantity and dubious meaningfulness of any data from relatively casual online tournaments, but I would say that what little we have is not showing this. Average shipcounts per list have stayed relatively constant over the course of second edition.

3. games going to time. This has been a perceived threat to the integrity of the game ever since the start of second edition, and I think perhaps the game takes more energy to think about (which is a good thing!) and makes games take longer. Additionally, the game rarely reaches an impasse where it's actually over and the rest of the game is just a formality, which happened a lot in 1.0 (situations where one side cannot mathematically do damage to the other). All this being said, any data on this I've seen has actually shown an INVERSE correlation between shipcount and going to time within any given meta - that is to say, it's actually the aces making games go to time.

TL;DR I agree with you in your general sentiment about points deflation posing a potential problem to the game, but I think the threat is more that ace lists don't seem to have to make any real decisions in the listbuilding step anymore, usually getting all the toys they want and a healthy bid without any real tradeoffs being made.

To add to this last point, I strongly feel that three real aces shouldn't be allowed to fit in a list. I don't know if the answer is smaller points caps or Legion-style unit type requirements, but there's something very wrong about all these extended empire triple ace lists, 7B jedi lists, ensnare Sun Fac/Chertek/Grievous lists, etc. that we're seeing.

32 minutes ago, Clutterbuck said:

Count me in on Team Plus 10% to all points

Maybe, but I think it wouldn't be that simple. Breakpoints matter, and a lot of current balance hinges on them.

A 2 point difference in live between T-65 and T-70 gets greatly exaggerated by the 5 vs 4 options at 40 vs 42 points, but at 44 vs 46, that's a really massive step up in power for the T-70 for those 2 points.

12 minutes ago, Kyle Ren said:

ensnare Sun Fac/Chertek/Grievous lists, etc. that we're seeing.

Wait... is Ensnare showing up on tables again?

5 hours ago, battlestarbill said:

seems like a lot of love for the baron of the empire right now. what are some lists that you think have potential with it.

Barons with Ruthless backing a few LNs sound absurd.

Barons with Prockets.

Yikes.

FO Omegas basically have Fanatical or P.Tradition, which both have unique utility over the Baron. FOs just don't have that spike potential that Barons have with their Missile slots or the linked actions.