10 minutes ago, Kieransi said:Ah, that's right. I find this forum's lack of choices for avatars disturbing.
Tell me about it. I'm stuck with this warped Y-Wing because I'm too afraid to give it up and lose Star Wars ships as my icon forever.
Carolina Krayts is the best X-Wing podcast
56 minutes ago, defkhan1 said:Off-topic: I've been playing against Rebel regen for as long as I've been playing the game. Regen has always been my boogieman and I thought I had gotten used to how to deal with it over time. Last night I played against a standard regen Poe, a ship I've played against dozens of times before. I killed his partner and proceeded to watch Poe clean up enough of my ships to win on pts at time. I got so frustrated after that game in a way I haven't felt in a long time. I don't know why. Ghost/Fenn has never had that effect on me, as cheesy as it is. It's gotten to the point that I'm only trying to build lists with how to beat regen in mind. I'm not going down the RAClo rabbit hole again. I've already done that and while I had a great run with it at Crossroads, I don't want to fly RAC again. It wasn't that fun. I may sound nuts, but I don't think I'm ever going to fly turrets again. Or bombs, or regen. The most fun I've ever had playing X-wing was at 2017 Worlds where I had a great run, going 7-2 flying three small base arced ships (QD/OL/Vessery). No regen, no AT, no secondary weapons, only single reposition...but it was fun. I want to believe that I can do the same thing this year but I'm just not sure. I don't really know what the point of this post was. I guess I'm feeling a little lost.
I'm with you, but to be fair, the kylo RAC 'feels' different than old RAC, because there's a far better safety blanket (blind, PS 0) than before.
1 hour ago, skotothalamos said:Last two months of the KraytKast:
"One way you could Git Gud would be to fly a good list..."
"Oh God, not that good! Stahp the pain! Haaalp!"
"One way you probably suck is that you fly a good list..."
It really was unfortunate timing. Listener 4 was predicated upon the idea that you enjoyed the game as a foundation. It wasn't meant to try and get good at a game you're not interested in playing, and the meta shifted so hard towards super turrets that many of us have lost a lot of our interest we re-found when the new wave hit.
You should still play the best list, if you want to win [and fundamentally enjoy playing the game].
20 minutes ago, LagJanson said:Tell me about it. I'm stuck with this warped Y-Wing because I'm too afraid to give it up and lose Star Wars ships as my icon forever.
Hey, keep it! That's the most hideous Star Wars art ever conceived! It's like a meme/joke at this point.
2 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:I'm with you, but to be fair, the kylo RAC 'feels' different than old RAC, because there's a far better safety blanket (blind, PS 0) than before.
Old school Gunner/Vader RAC was definitely fun. It was the opposite of Fat Han, which focused on trying to survive as opposed to killing things. With RAClo, while I certainly enjoyed putting Dash and Poe in their graves, it definitely felt cheesy enough to make me not like it.
I'm just hoping we get out of this hyper defense rut one day. One of the things pushing me further and further toward IA is that things in that game just take damage and there isn't much you can do about it. And that makes it both fun and interesting. Both players have to trade figures for board control and whoever comes out ahead is the winner. There's no such thing as an unkillable figure either. Even Vader or Han can die from a random Jawa attack if they're at low enough health. Can't say the same thing about, say, a Z-95 vs. regen Poe or AS Kylo.
19 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:You should still play the best list, if you want to win [and fundamentally enjoy playing the game].
There lies a bit of a paradox however...
- The best list is not the same list as what I enjoy within the game. I like to fly starfighters in my Star Wars dogfighting game. I don't want to fly a freighter with a turret escorted by a shuttle.
- I don't find enjoyment being dumpstered with my small based fighters picked off one by one because modern turrets are better for the points than actual military grade fighters...
Grumble mutter curse.
At least I find enough enjoyment still, I'm not in danger of quitting yet, but I'd much rather mix it up with four X-Wings and only feel completely outclassed when my opponent is making better choices on the mat than I am.
Edited by LagJansonI want to preface this by being very clear: I agree with you guys about Ghost-Fenn.
What I'm struggling with is this:
How do you justify "playing Ghost-Fenn to win is only okay if you enjoy the game Ghost-Fenn provides" when y'all were, say, perfectly okay with fortressing whatever list you felt you must fortress to win?
Did you "enjoy" fortressing?
Why is fortressing against opponents okay, but playing Ghost-Fenn against opponents isn't? (To whatever extent y'all are saying it isn't.)
I'm trying to grant the benefit of the doubt, but it's hard, because the way you feel about Ghost-Fenn is the way some of us players have felt about list after list after list, each of which is the new OP hotness, at least some of which y'all have enjoyed playing in the past. And yet, the answer y'all provided to the people who hated those lists was, "Git gud." It's the way we feel about stuff like fortressing, to which the answer provided is, "It's allowed, it's a tactic, git gud."
Where is the actual Tropic of Cancer? (It's okay, BTW, to say, "We don't really know. We're just expressing our opinions." But if that's the case, I sincerely hope you'll remember that the next time there's a bad list that a lot of players hate, but you guys think is just fine.)
1 hour ago, defkhan1 said:Off-topic: I've been playing against Rebel regen for as long as I've been playing the game. Regen has always been my boogieman and I thought I had gotten used to how to deal with it over time. Last night I played against a standard regen Poe, a ship I've played against dozens of times before. I killed his partner and proceeded to watch Poe clean up enough of my ships to win on pts at time. I got so frustrated after that game in a way I haven't felt in a long time. I don't know why. Ghost/Fenn has never had that effect on me, as cheesy as it is. It's gotten to the point that I'm only trying to build lists with how to beat regen in mind. I'm not going down the RAClo rabbit hole again. I've already done that and while I had a great run with it at Crossroads, I don't want to fly RAC again. It wasn't that fun. I may sound nuts, but I don't think I'm ever going to fly turrets again. Or bombs, or regen. The most fun I've ever had playing X-wing was at 2017 Worlds where I had a great run, going 7-2 flying three small base arced ships (QD/OL/Vessery). No regen, no AT, no secondary weapons, only single reposition...but it was fun. I want to believe that I can do the same thing this year but I'm just not sure. I don't really know what the point of this post was. I guess I'm feeling a little lost.
I just want to say that you without any doubt can still take Trip Imperial aces without Palp and put in some work. Even with the Ghost on the table. Quickdraw/Inq, Quickdraw/Vader, Defenders, it works, its often hard, its occasionally very easy but its doable.
That said going without ordinance or some reposition/autothrusters...I cant really imagine anything besides Trip Defenders that can fit that mold.
The Ghost is the correct choice, but freedom is a choice to.
Edited by Boom Owl19 minutes ago, Jeff Wilder said:I want to preface this by being very clear: I agree with you guys about Ghost-Fenn.
What I'm struggling with is this:
How do you justify "playing Ghost-Fenn to win is only okay if you enjoy the game Ghost-Fenn provides" when y'all were, say, perfectly okay with fortressing whatever list you felt you must fortress to win?
Did you "enjoy" fortressing?
Why is fortressing against opponents okay, but playing Ghost-Fenn against opponents isn't? (To whatever extent y'all are saying it isn't.)
I'm trying to grant the benefit of the doubt, but it's hard, because the way you feel about Ghost-Fenn is the way some of us players have felt about list after list after list, each of which is the new OP hotness, at least some of which y'all have enjoyed playing in the past. And yet, the answer y'all provided to the people who hated those lists was, "Git gud." It's the way we feel about stuff like fortressing, to which the answer provided is, "It's allowed, it's a tactic, git gud."
Where is the actual Tropic of Cancer? (It's okay, BTW, to say, "We don't really know. We're just expressing our opinions." But if that's the case, I sincerely hope you'll remember that the next time there's a bad list that a lot of players hate, but you guys think is just fine.)
I don't quite agree with this. To some extent, the Krayts have always been saying that the new hotness is broken on some level, or that some thing is completely busted. there are very few thing that top the charts that they actually advocate for - and even when they do, it is typically cautiously. "Get gud" has always been more of a meme that actual advice against the top lists, because with many of them getting gud is not an option. The problem is that when it is (gunboats) people refuse to do it.
16 minutes ago, Do I need a Username said:"Get gud" has always been more of a meme that actual advice against the top lists, because with many of them getting gud is not an option. The problem is that when it is (gunboats) people refuse to do it.
Nah. It is just as possible to "git gud" against Ghost-Fenn as it is against massed Harpoon Missiles.
The difference is purely in whether or not what "git gud" means is a type of play that appeals to you.
People that don't like massed Harpoons (that's the real complaint ... nobody cares specifically about Gunboats) do not feel like they should be automatically restricted from flying huge swaths of ships because those ships can't stand up to two (or three) Harpoon hits ... or arc-dodge.
People that don't like Ghost-Fenn don't like that they're automatically restricted from flying huge swaths of ships because those ships can't stand up to 3-5 all-but-guaranteed damage a turn.
It's exactly the same type of complaint. The difference is simply in the preference of the person unilaterally deciding whether the complaint is valid. And we all do it: I went something like 23-2 against Palp Aces, after losing to a very good local player here in my first game against them. Consequently, I never had a problem with Palpatine, even un-nerfed. I played Brobots extensively, so I know how to range control and use Advanced Sensors to neuter ordnance, so I don't mind Harpoons much (except for the idiotic complexity). I dislike playing more traditional Palp-assisted Autothrusting arc-dodgers, so I don't like Ghost-Fenn. And so on.
It's all the same complaint: this list is really, really strong, to the extent that it severely limits what I can fly and be competitive. So the only question is, "Well, the remaining stuff ... do you like flying it?" If the answer is, "Yeah, it's fine," then you have a harder time acknowledging that the problem list is a problem. If the answer is, "No, I really don't," then you have a nervous breakdown over Ghost-Fenn.
The thing is, I don't hate massed Harpoons, but at the very least I understand why people do ... and I understand that the reason is not as simple as "I'm not gud enough to figure out how to beat them." The Krayts don't seem -- again, "seem," because I do want to maintain the benefit of the doubt -- to understand why perfectly good players can dislike things they think are fine or even "good for the game."
Edited by Jeff Wilder17 minutes ago, Jeff Wilder said:I want to preface this by being very clear: I agree with you guys about Ghost-Fenn.
What I'm struggling with is this:
How do you justify "playing Ghost-Fenn to win is only okay if you enjoy the game Ghost-Fenn provides" when y'all were, say, perfectly okay with fortressing whatever list you felt you must fortress to win?
Did you "enjoy" fortressing?
Why is fortressing against opponents okay, but playing Ghost-Fenn against opponents isn't? (To whatever extent y'all are saying it isn't.)
I'm trying to grant the benefit of the doubt, but it's hard, because the way you feel about Ghost-Fenn is the way some of us players have felt about list after list after list, each of which is the new OP hotness, at least some of which y'all have enjoyed playing in the past. And yet, the answer y'all provided to the people who hated those lists was, "Git gud." It's the way we feel about stuff like fortressing, to which the answer provided is, "It's allowed, it's a tactic, git gud."
Where is the actual Tropic of Cancer? (It's okay, BTW, to say, "We don't really know. We're just expressing our opinions." But if that's the case, I sincerely hope you'll remember that the next time there's a bad list that a lot of players hate, but you guys think is just fine.)
Sorry if this is a little rambley, it's a good question and I'm trying to find the correct words.
I think it's ok to broaden "playing Ghost-Fenn to win is only okay if you enjoy the game Ghost-Fenn provides" some. I'm not making a personal judgement against people that play it. It's not the game I want to play, but I'm willing to accept that some number (probably smaller than are playing it to win) actually enjoy it, but even if they aren't enjoying it, if the primary goal is to win who am I to judge? I don't care about winning that much, but someone else might.
Absolutely not - no, I do not enjoy fortressing. Well, that's not entirely true - I get some perverse enjoyment out of breaking the game, but the game itself isn't enjoyable. To be clear, I think the correct response to both Kanan Fenn and fortressing is the same, which in the short term like you said: it's allowed, it's a tactic, git gud. In the long term, I think that both are extremely unfun and bad for the game. For FSR2 and fortressing as a win condition, I did that to prove a point and show that it's a problem for the long term health of the game. I think players should be have incentive to destroy enemy ships, not keep their own alive.
As for fortressing as a one off matchup plan, we've been fortunate that so far it's mostly not widespread. I didn't mind it against triple K, as it was a reaction to another similar degenerate strategy. Basically, there fortressing was the sympton, not the original cause of the problem. That obviously doesn't make fortressing OK - something like quad wookies should be doing much better than it is now, if players were willing to fortress and refuse to play the game.
TL;DR I don't think pro-active fortressing is ok (from a design perspective - for the players, you do you, it's legal, do it) in the same way I don't think Ghost/Fenn is ok (from a design perspetive).
Completely random unrelated topic. What do you all think of this list?
I'm trying to think of the troll-iest way to use Krennic, which I think is to give his condition to a ship that never rolls more than two dice anyway. So Valen doesn't actually care what he rolls, he just sits there and knocks away shields from range 3 while Vader and the insane fat Reaper go in for the kill. And the reaper just always jams people, because he gets like full dice mods after he's done that and then HotCopped everyone.
Yes, it's silly jank, but it might make a lot of lists very, very sad. I already love the Reaper so much...
3 minutes ago, Kieransi said:Completely random unrelated topic. What do you all think of this list?
I'm trying to think of the troll-iest way to use Krennic, which I think is to give his condition to a ship that never rolls more than two dice anyway. So Valen doesn't actually care what he rolls, he just sits there and knocks away shields from range 3 while Vader and the insane fat Reaper go in for the kill. And the reaper just always jams people, because he gets like full dice mods after he's done that and then HotCopped everyone.
Yes, it's silly jank, but it might make a lot of lists very, very sad. I already love the Reaper so much...
I am a strong advocate for Krennic on Vader because he is likely to roll all hits, and then put OL in there instead.
Thank you for giving us all a great example of how to discuss our feelings and opinions about the game like adults. I still think the core of all this has been more about fighting for and attempting to define the spirit of the game that we love. What people choose to bring to tournaments is basically irrelevant. Tournaments are a darwin award optimization puzzle.
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion of when that puzzle stops being fun, even podcasters who advocate learning the limits of the game. Lots of the stuff in your two posts above are part of a necessary discussion and if we don't have it players will leave quietly like they did when Genius/Nym and Pre-Nerf Biggs/Low ruled the earth. I think we have seen its a discussion that the Devs are actually paying attention to and its not something we should shy away from.Bottom line design matters and finding some consensus as a community about what "feels" fun requires debate.
Just need to continue to find the right way to do it and let this thread be an example for all as it should be.
TL;DR
ARCS ON TOP.
Edited by Boom Owl2 hours ago, Biophysical said:You hate regen? You like arced ships?
Step right up and take a look in the direction of a TIE/D, my friend. Ion Cannons do very bad things to regenerating ships. They can't flee effectively, and the Ion move is white, so R2D2 doesn't work. An Ion hit is like 2 damage against Poe.
Something like this?
TIE/D (99)
•Maarek Stele (39) - TIE Defender
Veteran Instincts (1), Ion Cannon (3), TIE/D (0)
•Countess Ryad (38) - TIE Defender
Veteran Instincts (1), Ion Cannon (3), TIE/D (0)
Nu Squadron Veteran (22) - Alpha-class Star Wing
Harpoon Missiles (4), Long-Range Scanners (0)
Coincidentally, my matchup plan against ghost fenn is fortressing lol
1 minute ago, jokerkd said:Coincidentally, my matchup plan against ghost fenn is fortressing lol
I ran into one player last weekend who thought if it went to Final Salvo, the Ghost player would only be rolling 6 dice.
"i'll be rolling 8 dice, so I should easily win."
"Um ... "
2 hours ago, Jeff Wilder said:I want to preface this by being very clear: I agree with you guys about Ghost-Fenn.
What I'm struggling with is this:
How do you justify "playing Ghost-Fenn to win is only okay if you enjoy the game Ghost-Fenn provides" when y'all were, say, perfectly okay with fortressing whatever list you felt you must fortress to win?
Did you "enjoy" fortressing?
Why is fortressing against opponents okay, but playing Ghost-Fenn against opponents isn't? (To whatever extent y'all are saying it isn't.)
I'm trying to grant the benefit of the doubt, but it's hard, because the way you feel about Ghost-Fenn is the way some of us players have felt about list after list after list, each of which is the new OP hotness, at least some of which y'all have enjoyed playing in the past. And yet, the answer y'all provided to the people who hated those lists was, "Git gud." It's the way we feel about stuff like fortressing, to which the answer provided is, "It's allowed, it's a tactic, git gud."
Where is the actual Tropic of Cancer? (It's okay, BTW, to say, "We don't really know. We're just expressing our opinions." But if that's the case, I sincerely hope you'll remember that the next time there's a bad list that a lot of players hate, but you guys think is just fine.)
For what it's worth, I've been on the record numerous times saying players dont go to tournaments excited to fortress - it's a product of unwinnable matchups or broken design/meta.
I can let @Brunas elaborate, but the FSR2 fortress was specifically to highlight how busted the new final salvo rule was in relation to the general theme of playing the game, and, also, because people explicitly told us it was wrong and didn't work.
Also, no one believed us on triple wookies (totally not a turret) [It's functionally a turret].
I've also been on the record that intel agent is super busted, and basically stopped playing those lists out of boredom (and partially, disgust).
As for the Tropic of Cancer... I think I really don't know, but have some "feelings" in the direction (I know it when I see it). The apparent underlying similarity is when arcs and dials are severely diminished, which is basically a large part of the decision making (which is a large part of what is fun for me, personally).
This is what makes Ghost Fenn further in that vein: super accurate turret, with low variance on it's end, and massively increasing variance on your opponent's end, while also getting to "arc dodge" or super range control at PS 11 with a weird, cheap support ship (that you also can't easily just go kill).
I absolutely could be "wrong" in terms of the community's general perception or preferences. I definitely know some of my interests are more niche, but I still suspect most of us want to play the decision making dials-and-arc game the underlying game was built upon (this is absolutely an assumption).
******
Separately, as for "cancer" and what not, and fun, let's use this example - If I go to a tournament and play 6 swiss rounds:
If I face 1 "cancer" style list (notably, simply unenjoyable to play against), I shrug, as 5 out of 6 games were more interesting/enjoyable.
If I face 2 cancer lists: well, that is starting to suck, as now a full 1/3 of my games were less enjoyable (separate from wins).
If I have 3... I start wondering if maybe I'd rather have done something else with my time.
It's that general effect, as Chris noted earlier, that is separate from "Git Gud": having some crappy swiss matchups is a way of life for a tournament player, and you do need to have game plans and perseverance (and luck) to succeed.
However, having many crappy matchups, for an extended period of time, and you just start losing interest ("Meh, why am I even doing this?"). To me, that's not the same realm as "Git Gud," because you have to actually want to play to do that.
9 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:******
Separately, as for "cancer" and what not, and fun, let's use this example - If I go to a tournament and play 6 swiss rounds:
If I face 1 "cancer" style list (notably, simply unenjoyable to play against), I shrug, as 5 out of 6 games were more interesting/enjoyable.
If I face 2 cancer lists: well, that is starting to suck, as now a full 1/3 of my games were less enjoyable (separate from wins).
If I have 3... I start wondering if maybe I'd rather have done something else with my time.
Thats right where I am at with the game but probably with a higher tolerance since I have only been playing seriously for about a year and my only point of comparison is Miranda/Biggs/Low & Genius Nym. I go into any tournament with the expectation that 50% of my games in swiss will be semi-frustrating but ultimately solvable boss battle puzzles against an HP countdown card deck or a player whose primary concern will be Range Control after they attempt an opening joust from their preferred angle.
As long as I feel like I can control the outcome of one of those three card deck games AND have three other games that mix in a bit more of a dogfight I am basically happy. Winning definitely helps. I won't deny that even in the slightest. Winning doesn't cure salt but it can make you oblivious to it. My (*humble brag) unearned undefeated record against Ghost/Fenn in tournaments is a big factor in my reduced level of salt but its 100% an anecdote. In reviewing my notes recently each win was universally a result of having PS11 ships with a massive bid and a series of opponents who looked at my list and said "pshh jank that looks fragile and bad your probably bad, lets joust bro". Five minutes later Fenn has only 1 of my ships in arc and is off the table immediately.
Said it a few times before but I don't have context for a version of X-Wing that is not at least a 40/60 or 50/50 ratio of "feels bad man" vs "feels like Star Wars". If it ever becomes a 60/40 or 80/20 ratio I'm out. Ill just re-install Falcon 4.0, Crimson Skies, Freespace 2, Tachyon the Fringe, or the Tie Fighter games and wait for another company to take a crack at the "30-60 Minute Space/Airplane Dogfight Skirmish Miniatures Board Game" genre that now exists, can't unexist and will always be popular.
For now since my first experience with a new wave was out of the box "Nym" & "Biggs/Lowhirck" before the great nerf.....literally anything else looks like the best possible version of the game ever.
Easy way to define cancer:
Is this the fitting background music?
or is this the fitting background music?
... Is this a bad time to point out that three bombing Warden would kick the ever-lovin' ***** out of Ghost-Fenn?
Or should I hold onto that until depression really sets in?
3 minutes ago, Jeff Wilder said:... Is this a bad time to point out that three bombing Warden would kick the ever-lovin' ***** out of Ghost-Fenn?
Or should I hold onto that until depression really sets in?
That seems like it would be comparatively fun to play against. Did that version of K-Wings have any TLT? If not wouldnt it basically just be blocking setup without Regen?
Edited by Boom Owl
16 minutes ago, Jeff Wilder said:... Is this a bad time to point out that three bombing Warden would kick the ever-lovin' ***** out of Ghost-Fenn?
Or should I hold onto that until depression really sets in?
Man, here's a sad statement: I'd rather play against ghost fenn than triple K.
Is that actually true? I don't even know, honestly.
Edited by Brunas1 hour ago, Jeff Wilder said:I ran into one player last weekend who thought if it went to Final Salvo, the Ghost player would only be rolling 6 dice.
"i'll be rolling 8 dice, so I should easily win."
"Um ... "
Whoops. Nothing like a "two-ship" list with 9 Salvo dice. :/
Edited by skotothalamos3 minutes ago, Brunas said:Man, here's a sad statement: I'd rather play against triple K.
Is that actually true? I don't even know, honestly.
Pretty sure it's true, head-simming it. Fenn's meaningless because they don't really care about gun damage ... and besides, he could die in one bombing run. I came >< close to playing Expertise-Rey + 38-point bombing Warden in the NorCal Regional.
(BTW, by way of illustration, I enjoyed playing -- and playing against -- bombing K-wings. I never played Triple-Ks, but I liked Double-K + Ahsoka, and I even liked getting my *** handed to me the time I tried Double-K + U-wing.)
2 minutes ago, Jeff Wilder said:Pretty sure it's true, head-simming it. Fenn's meaningless because they don't really care about gun damage ... and besides, he could die in one bombing run. I came >< close to playing Expertise-Rey + 38-point bombing Warden in the NorCal Regional.
(BTW, by way of illustration, I enjoyed playing -- and playing against -- bombing K-wings. I never played Triple-Ks, but I liked Double-K + Ahsoka, and I even liked getting my *** handed to me the time I tried Double-K + U-wing.)
Oh, sorry I meant I'm not sure I'd actually rather play against Ghost Fenn than triple K. Went back and edited it because wow, I failed at typing that. Way out of it apparently. I agree - triple K would dumpster ghost fenn super hard.
And I believe it! Some people love bombs. It's not the game I want to play, and I'd rather it not be a main mechanic of X-Wing, but I don't get a bigger vote than anyone else (which is no vote) for what's in the game, haha.
Edited by Brunas