How about final salvo bids? Everybody gets (rules) dice, and get an extra for every point under 200. That gives you ~10% better chance of moving last for each point, but weird diminishing returns for digging too deep, and those first five points or so are very important.
I like that use of salvo better than tiebreaker.
Edit: new page context “Is there some way to combine bids and randomness? Bid--with diminishing returns--slightly improving a dice roll-off for example.”
My takeaway from Gencon is that Jedi running away and regenning are something I need to learn to beat, because they probably aren’t going away any time soon.
11 minutes ago, AEIllingworth said:How about final salvo bids? Everybody gets (rules) dice, and get an extra for every point under 200. That gives you ~10% better chance of moving last for each point, but weird diminishing returns for digging too deep, and those first five points or so are very important.
I like that use of salvo better than tiebreaker.
Edit: new page context “Is there some way to combine bids and randomness? Bid--with diminishing returns--slightly improving a dice roll-off for example.”
My version starts with 3 dice, and adds an extra die to the "Opening Salvo" for certain target points spent, with the cost of a marginal die increasing exponentially. Something like:
Probably too complicated to be really an actual "good plan," but the value-per-point of adding each extra die goes down dramatically. Meanwhile, past the first few breakpoints, the difference in the list is pretty tangible. The difference between 6 dice and 7 dice is the cost of a shield upgrade.
//
I don't think 1 die per point to an "Opening Salvo" doesn't make sense, just because there could easily be too many dice to be practical.
Maybe 3 dice, plus 1 per 5 full points of bid would be the easiest compromise, in that it doesn't require absurd amounts of dice, but still is fairly simple. What I don't like about it, however, is that baby-bids don't matter, and I like it when small bids matter.
41 minutes ago, Jeff Wilder said:You don't have to go to 200. And with random First Player, there would still be a benefit. (Namely, your last ship would be worth it's actual points, plus your bid. Since games seem to go to time much more in 2E, that's meaningful.)
Random First Player would fix all of the problems with bidding and some of the problems with FFG's inability to figure out the true worth of hypermobile I-6 pilots.
Eh. I think protecting last few points isn't enough of a benefit.
I guess the difference is that I don't hate bidding. I like bidding. I just think current-form bidding is too powerful, and particularly too all-or-nothing.
1 hour ago, Jeff Wilder said:You don't have to go to 200. And with random First Player, there would still be a benefit. (Namely, your last ship would be worth it's actual points, plus your bid. Since games seem to go to time much more in 2E, that's meaningful.)
Random First Player would fix all of the problems with bidding and some of the problems with FFG's inability to figure out the true worth of hypermobile I-6 pilots.
I agree with Jeff here. Can we get a good faith argument* on why game health is better when you can intentionally leave off 5, 10, 15 or more points?
I.e., not “I earned moving last by not spending those points!”
Edited by PaulRuddSays29 minutes ago, Dismal Scientist said:My takeaway from Gencon is that Jedi running away and regenning are something I need to learn to beat, because they probably aren’t going away any time soon.
I agree
1 hour ago, Jeff Wilder said:You don't have to go to 200. And with random First Player, there would still be a benefit. (Namely, your last ship would be worth it's actual points, plus your bid. Since games seem to go to time much more in 2E, that's meaningful.)
Random First Player would fix all of the problems with bidding and some of the problems with FFG's inability to figure out the true worth of hypermobile I-6 pilots.
Bidding is an inherent balance mechanism against high-I being too good. Bids keep going up until it's balanced.
Removing bidding makes FFG's tendency toward undercosting high-I worse, AND removes the safety valve for it.
I would like to see regen not gaining back half-points, but even with such a thing I beleive we are missing the problem which is force and stressless double repositioning on high ps ships with great dials.
As I said previously, Anakin is cancerlike level of crazy goodness, I'm definetly not looking forward to the next 6 months of hunting him in various 200 points Anakin list
3 minutes ago, Sunitsa said:I would like to see regen not gaining back half-points, but even with such a thing I beleive we are missing the problem which is force and stressless double repositioning on high ps ships with great dials.
As I said previously, Anakin is cancerlike level of crazy goodness, I'm definetly not looking forward to the next 6 months of hunting him in various 200 points Anakin list
I agree. Anakin knocked me out of the cut in round 7 on day 1a of Gencon. It was a letdown after a very long day.
11 minutes ago, itsJALbert said:Removing bidding makes FFG's tendency toward undercosting high-I worse, AND removes the safety valve for it.
Counterpoint: how many people run expensive aces when they know they’re not guaranteed to go last versus other aces?
That number has got to be less than it is today, I think.
7 minutes ago, PaulRuddSays said:Counterpoint: how many people run expensive aces when they know they’re not guaranteed to go last versus other aces?
Alot?
There a ton of aces right now that are excellent moving first.
In large part because pretty much all of them can K-Turn with Mods. Thanks Force Charges.
Its kind of a defining 2.0 feature that its a viable strategy.
This is an odd question, but who would win 1-on-1 between Vader w/ FCS & Afterburners and Anakin with the 7b title and R2? Does the one who moves last win? Or is Anakin so good that Vader doesn't stand a chance?
5 minutes ago, RunnerAZ said:Does the one who moves last win?
Anakin has a much easier time moving first in that matchup ( compared to Vader's sadness moving first ) if thats your question.
Its really helpful though that Vader doesnt need to stress before the K-Turn.
21 minutes ago, PaulRuddSays said:Counterpoint: how many people run expensive aces when they know they’re not guaranteed to go last versus other aces?
That number has got to be less than it is today, I think.
It's now a collective game of rock paper scissors we opt into. We'll have some number of people doing it, because if nobody does then I6 is a free win.
Once we hit equilibrium, intra-I6 matchups would then be decided by a coin flip. I'm not saying the bid is the perfect solution, but bidding in the metagame is almost inherently a little more fair and interesting on a tournament scale than 'coin flip for a massive advantage.'
Edited by itsJALbert8 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:Anakin has a much easier time moving first in that matchup ( compared to Vader's sadness moving first ) if thats your question.
Its really helpful though that Vader doesnt need to stress before the K-Turn.
I guess if Vader and Soontir can make it to the end, Anakin will be sad, even if Vader & co. are moving 1st. or Sense on Vader will make the difference.
Edited by RunnerAZ16 minutes ago, RunnerAZ said:I guess if Vader and Soontir can make it to the end, Anakin will be sad, even if Vader & co. are moving 1st.
Sure yea. There are plenty of ways to manage an ace moving last. No doubt about it.
Those options start to narrow based on:
Why doesn't people run hull/shield on Anakin?
the 2 Shields from R2 Astro seems to be enough and the points are better spent elsewhere?
5 minutes ago, Boreas Mun said:Why doesn't people run hull/shield on Anakin?
Spare Parts Cannisters are cheaper.
11 minutes ago, itsJALbert said:Spare Parts Cannisters are cheaper.
That's a card I feel like should be used more than it is.
14 minutes ago, SnooSnarry said:That's a card I feel like should be used more than it is.
Would've come in handy for Anakin in that Top 4 GenCon match on GSP, that's for sure.
18 minutes ago, doweaver said:Would've come in handy for Anakin in that Top 4 GenCon match on GSP, that's for sure.
Counterpoint, Anakin in the finals wasn't seriously threatened without it. In the first game, it would've been a patch for poor positioning, in the second, it would've been wasted list space, or at best allowed a sitautionally more aggressive push.
No listfortress for Gencon yet? For shame!
I need to think of a HS list and I wanted inspiration... At this point, I'm starting with Kylo, but then I have all those "pick 2" options and I can't make up my mind (what if it was "pick 3", like @Brunas did?). Blackout, Recoil/FOTP, Quickdraw, Tavson, they all fit somehow in that "plus 2."
41 minutes ago, MasterShake2 said:
Counterpoint, Anakin in the finals wasn't seriously threatened without it. In the first game, it would've been a patch for poor positioning, in the second, it would've been wasted list space, or at best allowed a sitautionally more aggressive push.
Yeah, I was mostly joking. I ran Anakin with R2 + Spare Parts for a bit and I don't think I ever used it for anything other than regenning a third shield.
1 hour ago, drjkel said:No listfortress for Gencon yet? For shame!
I need to think of a HS list and I wanted inspiration... At this point, I'm starting with Kylo, but then I have all those "pick 2" options and I can't make up my mind (what if it was "pick 3", like @Brunas did?). Blackout, Recoil/FOTP, Quickdraw, Tavson, they all fit somehow in that "plus 2."
I'll put to an entry soon ™️, only just got home today.
22 minutes ago, Brunas said:I'll put to an entry soon ™️, only just got home today.
You were playing and have to do the data entry? That doesn't feel fair...