4 minutes ago, LagJanson said:

That would be:

games going to time is bad, because it incentivizes running away

And you've got the tools to do it? But fair nuff. Y'all wrote too much so I did some skimming

Just go full on theme. At 75 minutes a galactic super weapon will go off and everyone blows up. You're just fighting on points for the phyrric victory. The ultimate resolution.

2 minutes ago, jagsba said:

Throw games are going to time because people are running aces with force/Regen that can't be easily caught and killed in

Are people... actually not able to kill aces still? LMAO just shoot at them until they die. Keep setting dials down, keep getting them in the firing cone, don't over-commit, don't stress yourself. Literally just shoot them until their green dice fail. I really am skeptical of the notion that ace lists are the ones going to time because when I win with double jedi, it's usually because everything except for Anakin died. Aces can't joust, so it looks like they are running down the clock, but they're really just walking opponents into engagements that no longer egregiously favor the non-ace list. From then on, once the flank is live, it's kill time until everything is dead or you're not allowed to kill anymore.

It really is the 5 of X ship or 6 of Y ship lists that are the problem. They are the ones gaming the system by basically winning at the start and then making the game go as slow as possible so they can keep this lead. Chess clock needs to happen because so many of these people flying packs of ships are thinking really really hard (suspiciously hard) about moves that are completely obvious like k-turns on blocks of tie fighters that have overshot the enemy.

On 7/22/2019 at 6:43 AM, RStan said:

I AGREE! Anyone know what stream was used at that trial? I'd really like to watch his game(s).

First game is up!

Just yesterday I learned about pluralistic ignorance. I bring it up because we (as the community) have the tendency to discuss potential solutions without putting the necessary effort into problem discovery.

That's why I appreciate the discussion about slowplay, it is untypically focussed on identifying the problem.

15 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Just yesterday I learned about pluralistic ignorance. I bring it up because we (as the community) have the tendency to discuss potential solutions without putting the necessary effort into problem discovery.

That's why I appreciate the discussion about slowplay, it is untypically focussed on identifying the problem.

Like most things in life, it's all about the incentives. Remove the incentives for slow play and then people will fall into line. Currently slow play is ill-defined (in a rules sense) and easily rewarded.

41 minutes ago, svelok said:

Is this even the same thing? This sounds like some other, additional complaint.

Related at least. In 1.0 there were far fewer games that got to the point where you could look at the board, know that there are only 2 rounds left, and see that you can win by running away. It's not that that couldn't happen in 1.0 but the overall shift in the timings in 2.0 has moved the peak of the distribution curve closer to that situation. Combine that with us for years preaching the gospel of know your win condition and if running away is it then you should do that. Make no mistake it is the correct choice given the ruleset but it does leave game feeling unfinished, at least to me

48 minutes ago, svelok said:

• games going to time is bad, because games don't feel resolved
• games going to time is bad, because it incentivizes lists that run up early leads they can't hold
• games going to time is bad, because it incentivizes running away
• games are going to time, because fewer rounds are being played, because people are slow-playing
• games are going to time, because fewer rounds are being played, because 2.0 has higher ship counts/involves more decision making/etc
• games are going to time, because more rounds are required for resolution, because 2.0 has higher hp counts/less offensive dice modification/etc

None of these are mutually exclusive, they could all be true and each contributing a little bit to the pile

The first one is the key one for me though, the second and third items are just variations on a theme. Running away feels bad because the game doesn't get resolved, early lead lists that win at time feels bad because the game ends before the resolution it was obviously headed for

Incidentally I don't actually think people are systemically slow playing, a handful do whether consciously or unconsciously and that sticks in peoples minds. But overall it's really not a super common thing, it just contributes inordinately to the feels bad man since it's so painful to experience and there's realistically little that can be done about it in a consistent manner (and even then only in extreme cases)

There's two other factors I'd like to throw in the ring.

Going to time is bad because the decisions you make with one turn left can be dramatically different than the decisions you make with two turns left, which can be dramatically different from how you'd play to eliminate the opponent, which is the ostensible goal.

I've been in situations where it's unclear whether there will be one round left or two, and it becomes a weird mind game of estimating time, and if my opponent will play at a normal pace or rush super fast to get a second turn in. Trying to estimate those non-game probabilities (and flying ships to silly positions because it's the last turn that matters, even if you're in an awful position for the future) doesn't feel like X Wing.

Second, there's a double factor where beefy lists are strongly correlated with good jousting, and there's a double whammy of not only are high ship lists hard to eliminate from the number of ships and go, but you also don't want to engage them in the most efficient way to burn them down because it's a losing strategy. Old rebel beef was both very beefy and also very rarely jousted, and trying to avoid initial engagement/tone it down can also lead to longer times.

23 minutes ago, Makaze said:

Related at least. In 1.0 there were far fewer games that got to the point where you could look at the board, know that there are only 2 rounds left, and see that you can win by running away. It's not that that couldn't happen in 1.0 but the overall shift in the timings in 2.0 has moved the peak of the distribution curve closer to that situation. Combine that with us for years preaching the gospel of know your win condition and if running away is it then you should do that. Make no mistake it is the correct choice given the ruleset but it does leave game feeling unfinished, at least to me

None of these are mutually exclusive, they could all be true and each contributing a little bit to the pile

The first one is the key one for me though, the second and third items are just variations on a theme. Running away feels bad because the game doesn't get resolved, early lead lists that win at time feels bad because the game ends before the resolution it was obviously headed for

Incidentally I don't actually think people are systemically slow playing, a handful do whether consciously or unconsciously and that sticks in peoples minds. But overall it's really not a super common thing, it just contributes inordinately to the feels bad man since it's so painful to experience and there's realistically little that can be done about it in a consistent manner (and even then only in extreme cases)

The first step is for FFG to actually define slow play beyond the abstract. Do they even suggest what a reasonable amount of time is anywhere in the tournament regs? There just needs to be more on the book: dials shall take X length of time. Either that or a set number of rounds (16 sounds fun). Situations like this though make me more skeptical of if X-Wing is even a good game for competitive play at all because there are too many opportunities for the game to be interrupted, disturbed, cheating, and so on. The more I play in OP, the more I am convinced that the best format for X-wing is casual with beer.

Are people... actually not able to kill [swarms] still? LMAO just shoot at them until they die. Keep setting dials down, keep getting them in the firing cone, don't over-commit, don't stress yourself. Literally just shoot them until their green dice fail. I really am skeptical of the notion that [swarm] lists are the ones going to time because when I win with [swarms], it's usually because everything except for [some of my swarm] died. [Swarms] can [only] joust, so it looks like they are running down the clock, but they're really just walking opponents into engagements that no longer egregiously favor the []ace list. From then on, it's kill time until everything is dead or you're not allowed to kill anymore.

It really is the [ace] lists that are the problem. They are the ones gaming the system by basically [scoring points] and then [maintaining the game state] so they can keep this lead. Chess clock needs to happen because so many of these people flying [aces] are thinking really really hard (suspiciously hard) about moves that are completely obvious like [not jousting a swarm].

Jan's data did a good job summarizing it though. Turns out high ship counts and certain aces BOTH go to time a bunch and our personal biases might be a bit biased.

3 minutes ago, jagsba said:

Jan's data did a good job summarizing it though. Turns out high ship counts and certain aces BOTH go to time a bunch and our personal biases might be a bit biased.

Incorrect.

My personal biases are fine - it's yours that are the problem.

12 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

Incorrect.

My personal biases are fine - it's yours that are the problem.

My biases are that your biases are fine

Slow players are never fun.

On a separate note, how many force points is Fanatical worth? I'm thinking it's a little over half: it's used on what force leans to be modded for, but only triggers later in the game typically. On another unrelated note, are fanatic TIEs and SFs the ships that evade the most outside the obvious Soontir, Phantoms, and Defenders? I thought these questions are rather relevant, because an evading Fanatical Scorch (and a few others) tends to infuriate Padme. Fanatic Optic Silencers tend to "lol, ok" at her ability, but they tend to be out of her arc in the first place.

@ThinkingBis not entirely wrong: generally speaking, aces going to time is mostly 1.0 legacy.

Out of 22 games of rebel beef I played between Swiss and top over 2 sos and a HS trial, I went to time thrice: 2 times in a beef semi mirror and once against quad phantoms.

The usual 2.0 ace can't arcdodge AND modify, thus if you just point at them at one point they die. The issue is related to aces with force, aka kylo and jedis

50 minutes ago, jagsba said:

Jan's data did a good job summarizing it though. Turns out high ship counts and certain aces BOTH go to time a bunch and our personal biases might be a bit biased.

The distinction between going to time and playing a low number of rounds is very meaningful and we don't have data for the latter.

If it just takes 50% extra rounds to table someone in 2.0, then every word on slow play has been digital ink spilled in vain.

2 minutes ago, Sunitsa said:

@ThinkingBis not entirely wrong: generally speaking, aces going to time is mostly 1.0 legacy.

Out of 22 games of rebel beef I played between Swiss and top over 2 sos and a HS trial, I went to time thrice: 2 times in a beef semi mirror and once against quad phantoms.

The usual 2.0 ace can't arcdodge AND modify, thus if you just point at them at one point they die. The issue is related to aces with force, aka kylo and jedis

is the distinction between aces with force and aces without force meaningful if no one plays the aces without force?

6 minutes ago, jagsba said:

is the distinction between aces with force and aces without force meaningful if no one plays the aces without force?

Definition of Force Aces requested.

"Am I a Force Ace?"

4 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

Definition of Force Aces requested.

THE's definition of ace, but add force charges.

1 minute ago, Boom Owl said:

"Am I a Force Ace?"

if no one plays the aces without force?

2 hours ago, ThinkingB said:

Are people... actually not able to kill aces still? LMAO just shoot at them until they die.....

1 hour ago, jagsba said:

Are people... actually not able to kill [swarms] still? LMAO just shoot at them until they die.

Lmao, was this pre-existing or did we just witness copypastaception?

7 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

"Am I a Force Ace?"

Begins building boba maul lists furiously

4 minutes ago, jagsba said:

Begins building boba maul lists furiously

Add Lone Wolf and Stealth Device. His pictures on the card after all.

Also im pretty sure without any upgrades Boba is a better Force Ace. Infinite Charge tokens.