59 minutes ago, gamblertuba said:

I've been staring at Lytan and 5 Alphas real hard. Lytan can grab the targeting config, tractor beam, and a hull upgrade. It's not great but it's fun to fly and can give almost any list some panic sweats.

Lytan and 4 Sabers has been fun. Real weaknesses, but also pretty cool. That one chunky ship is nice to have in a squad of paper mache hulls.

31 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

Like RZ2s.

They share characteristics, but it's an apples to oranges comparison, at best, due to how the lists can be built and played.

New Snap + 3 BSAs continues to be one of the most enjoyable squads I've played (without Poe) in a long while. Like, a super long while. Just don't give up Snap for a song, though...it becomes less enjoyable shortly thereafter.

1 hour ago, gamblertuba said:

I've been staring at Lytan and 5 Alphas real hard. Lytan can grab the targeting config, tractor beam, and a hull upgrade. It's not great but it's fun to fly and can give almost any list some panic sweats.

Five alphas and two academies seems to cause some panic sweats, also.

1 hour ago, gennataos said:

Just don't give up Snap for a song, though...it becomes less enjoyable shortly thereafter.

I find that's true of most force multiplying lynchpins. 😛

I keep flipping back and forth between Sabers and Alpha's. The Alpha's get to block but the Sabers mostly get to shoot before pop....

In HS, there's not much in the way of talent that I'm finding particularly worth it for them. Lyttans rerolls are very neat but I keep wanting a Tractor Beam to shoot first....

How do you guys fly your Ints? Divide and conquer? double flank? joust?!?

I've been tending to split into wide pairs and push Rampage through the middle, but I don't think it gives him much time. The talon roll/fly-by choice is a pretty critical juncture.

Before (Ace meta):

1.2..3.....4......5.......6

Now (Generic meta):

1.2..3.....4.......5............6

Solution?

12.3...4........5.............6

Make medium initiative matters. Less efficiency loss and (against low) initiative kills.

If the medium field is more appealing, the swarms have more counters and the Aces have more chances (against an "overcosted" generics).

Someone said there aren't benefits from upgrade an academy to an obsidian squadron pilot and could cost the same, closing the gap between the more efficient generics and the medium initiative ones.

Note that the difference between low generics and top Aces remains almost untouched.

Obviously, some ships need a different initiative curve (a jouster gains less advantage with an upgrade than an arc-dodger, for example). That's one of the reasons Poe is a bad choice (an expensive semi-jouster).

7 minutes ago, S4ul0 said:

Obviously, some ships need a different initiative curve (a jouster gains less advantage with an upgrade than an arc-dodger, for example). That's one of the reasons Poe is a bad choice (an expensive semi-jouster).

Don't be so sure about this.

A HUGE reason that Spamtex was so absurdly strong is that it had the power to I-kill. I-killing swarms are terrifying, for perspective the old spamtex list will kill on average 2 T-65 X-wings before ever experiencing return fire, reducing incoming firepower by nearly half. Individual jousting ships with high initiative don't have much of an advantage, but once massed it becomes a huge effect, as now suddenly you only got 3 T-65's left that can together only take out 1 Nantex in return fire, putting you down 80 points when you only got a 40 point ship in return, which makes all future trades even more disfavorable.

The main problem with upgrading ships to get this is vs many lists its a dead upgrade. This is why you very rarely see mid initiative ships unless its to get access to talent slots, when it won't cost you a ship or any major upgrades and thus won't hurt your ace matchup, or to get access to pilot abilities. The last one is problematic because that creates a scenario where mid initiative ships that are 'fair' get dunked on by aces despite being forced to pay a 'I4 tax' on their ability, and you can't really plan around your initiative value in many cases.

So mid grade initiative needs to cost SOMETHING but its just rough because initiative is such an 'all or nothing' system, which is problematic. Any points you spend on initiative when it doesn't help are wasted which is why you saw aces lists going like 20 points into bid.

Hottest take: just ban generics. Even with things like TIE Swarms people just want to play the named pilots. That's fine! I think I agree - no one wants to play AS Obsidian Squadron Pilot. Save them for the solo player or co-op vs AI that's in alpha or whatever.

3 minutes ago, dezzmont said:

A HUGE reason that Spamtex was so absurdly strong is that it had the power to I-kill. I-killing swarms are terrifying, for perspective the old spamtex list will kill on average 2 T-65 X-wings before ever experiencing return fire, reducing incoming firepower by nearly half. Individual jousting ships with high initiative don't have much of an advantage, but once massed it becomes a huge effect.

The reason that Spamtex was so absurdly strong is that la absurdly undercosted.

With the last update I think is fine, but there are a lot of others Initiative 3-4 that simply don't worth.

6 minutes ago, dezzmont said:

The main problem with upgrading ships to get this is vs many lists its a dead upgrade

And this is why that upgrade needs to be less expensive. If you don't sacrifice a lot of efficiency, you may choose this option.

The medium initiative squads must eat the low initiative swarms if make a good approach (don't get blocked, etc.) and the Aces could have better chances against them.

I think this is the base from where a point update must start. The battle between Aces and low generics is a nonsense.

Finally, the breakpoints are important. Cross the line was a bad idea. We had points to spare between bring more ships (taking another model) or upgrades. Now, bring me 8 TIE/fo...

The squadbuilding is more easy today unless you want to play something different. The squadbuilding, is meta knowledge, is interesting, is skill.

I don't want a perfect balance (that's boring too and I love the update meta refresh) but the matches are not so fun today with a lot of green dice and health on the table. The game is better when the score moves.

Well yeah. I mean a 100 point ship with 4 native red dice and 12 health would be overcosted despite those being fantastic capabilities for a ship to have. Cost is contextual, and a huge context of initiative pricing is the 'economy of scale' of I4: 6 I4s are significantly better than 4 I4s, even if each individual model on its own as part of a larger strategy with mixed initiative is fair.

That is what I am really poking about by bringing up the Nantex: The spamtex list was good because they were spammable I4s. Its a testimant to how absurdly busted that list was in that if you removed their arc-dodging capabilities they would still be an extremely strong swarm simply off the virtue of I4+crackshot+predator with 3 dice bullseye arcs whenever it went up against a low initiative list. It was probably the most broken list in 2.0 history and was entirely so dangerous because of cheap spammable initiative.

1 hour ago, Brunas said:

Hottest take: just ban generics. Even with things like TIE Swarms people just want to play the named pilots. That's fine! I think I agree - no one wants to play AS Obsidian Squadron Pilot. Save them for the solo player or co-op vs AI that's in alpha or whatever.

I want to play generics. Two of my favorite squads in 2.0 were Lulo+4 Greens, and Snap+4 Blues. Other favorites include 5 (now 6) strikers or interceptors, Droid swarms, the fun sloane swarm (ie not rac and not aggressor), and of course the ace+gang lists like Poe+3 or Holo+3. I wish I could have my ace+Jousty ace+gunboat squad from 1.0 back.

That does not mean generics are 100% ok the way they are now.

Spitball.

Spam or Init or funky **** would be a nice clear choice to have to make.

Cheap I1/2 ofc.

Weakish pilot abilities on I5/6 should have always been a thing.

Put 1/2/3 dot limits on I3/4 generics, but with less tax on their init, opening up the upgrade slots for shenanigans and deleting mid Init spam balance problems.

Passing thought.

People keep talking about generics. What list of generics without some force multiplier are we saying is a problem?

Aggressors ain't scaring me much without Sloane.

Wookiees a way less annoying if AP-5 goes up a point.

Tractor Beams (and autoblasters?) are probably a bit too cheap on Scyks so either cannon or Scyk or both could go up.

Since Nantexes got hit, I think the game is in a pretty solid spot overall. Sand down the aforementioned and Boba and I'm laughing.

If players ever have to pay a fair price for moving last and shooting first, there's going to be whinging.

Edit for wholesome:

Merl and 4 Rookie T-70s is also fun. Also a potential force multiplier effect.

2 minutes ago, gamblertuba said:

People keep talking about generics. What list of generics without some force multiplier are we saying is a problem?

Yes, Sloane is bad design upgrade and the cannon Scyks are (maybe) too cheap. Are we saying is a problem?

The problem is not one or three squads. The problem is the game gravitates now around efficiency and for some people, like me, that's boring.

8 TIE/fo list isn't broken. Is boring. Wookies isn't broken. They are autoplay and they are boring.

The problem is what game we want. I love play generics too, but I want to win because I created good opportunities (blocks, kill boxes, objetive selection, etc.) not because I put pure efficiency on the table (and my opponent cannot overcome to that).

Althought there is always skill in this game, I bet with this meta there are more talk about (bad) luck.

I think that a game where is difficult to see the skill behind the variance, is not a good game.

This meta is more about dice than ever. That's the problem for me.

4 hours ago, Brunas said:

Hottest take: Just ban generics and set the max ship count at 5.

ftfy

If you also ban 6-8 ship lists x-wing players can finally clearly demonstrate their elite skills again.

5 hours ago, Cuz05 said:

I keep flipping back and forth between Sabers and Alpha's. The Alpha's get to block but the Sabers mostly get to shoot before pop....

In HS, there's not much in the way of talent that I'm finding particularly worth it for them. Lyttans rerolls are very neat but I keep wanting a Tractor Beam to shoot first....

How do you guys fly your Ints? Divide and conquer? double flank? joust?!?

I've been tending to split into wide pairs and push Rampage through the middle, but I don't think it gives him much time. The talon roll/fly-by choice is a pretty critical juncture.

I think the best hs talent for Sabers is Ruthless. You might not use it, but it's cheap, and you have points for it. The heavy stack of hp makes using it fairly palatable in certain situations

5 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

I think the best hs talent for Sabers is Ruthless. You might not use it, but it's cheap, and you have points for it. The heavy stack of hp makes using it fairly palatable in certain situations

I think I agree. With Rampage, 5th, 7th and 2 Ints, I was fairly comfortable putting Ruthless on them. With 1 Brute, 4x Ruthless Saber, I felt less comfortable

Fun bit of word synergy- you can run a Brute, with 3 Ruthless Sabers and 'Ruthless Brute'- 5th Bro.

I wasn't mad on the blend, but the words were all so good....

One (or two) question:

Is mitigate variance, throwing a lot of dice with an high efficient squad, skill?

I don't think so.

(Also, I don't think that dodge one or two fire arcs moving last takes much skill)

I want a game where the good players overcome the bad luck and could play whatever they want, not a game where the good players have to play the squads with better performance to keep their chances to win.

There will be always better squads but more options, the better.

We have more ships than ever. Have we more competitive options too?

9 hours ago, Biophysical said:

Like RZ2s.

Somewhat. 2-red turret ships with 3 agility, 4 health, and a bonus reposition action.

A-Wings aren't *that* cheap, though. It does seem like I5 is a bargain on them, but there have never been good 6 A-Wing lists, and that's an order of magnitude away from what Nantex were doing at peak.

A-Wings do seem to exert more annoyance than they should given their actual win rates--a level of success which doesn't really seem nerf worthy. If I'm trying to guess why, the archetype-spanning nature of RZ-2s is probably a large component of the frustration they bring.

4 hours ago, Brunas said:

Hottest take: just ban generics. Even with things like TIE Swarms people just want to play the named pilots. That's fine! I think I agree - no one wants to play AS Obsidian Squadron Pilot. Save them for the solo player or co-op vs AI that's in alpha or whatever.

To be sure, it'd make for an interesting Hyperspace season.

A good one? *shrug* But it'd be an experience.

1 hour ago, S4ul0 said:

The problem is not one or three squads. The problem is the game gravitates now around efficiency and for some people, like me, that's boring.

8 TIE/fo list isn't broken. Is boring. Wookies isn't broken. They are autoplay and they are boring.

The problem is what game we want. I love play generics too, but I want to win because I created good opportunities (blocks, kill boxes, objetive selection, etc.) not because I put pure efficiency on the table (and my opponent cannot overcome to that).

Recently, I've kept thinking about ships being a bit more expensive, but getting some amount of upgrades for free. B-Wings would probably be a dull efficiency mess if 5 per list. What if they were a bit pricier, but got a big pile of bonus points to buy one of {config double taps} or {torpedoes} or {sensor shenanigans}?

It's not quite so vanilla efficiency anymore. It's efficiency with sprinkles or chopped nuts or a cherry on top. Only one option, but it does add variety.

I just keep feeling FFG is up against the limit of how much bad ships can be buffed by simply increasing their efficiency, and instead of just up-and-down nerfs and buffs, it might be time to go sideways.

2 hours ago, S4ul0 said:

Yes, Sloane is bad design upgrade and the cannon Scyks are (maybe) too cheap. Are we saying is a problem?

The problem is not one or three squads. The problem is the game gravitates now around efficiency and for some people, like me, that's boring.

8 TIE/fo list isn't broken. Is boring. Wookies isn't broken. They are autoplay and they are boring.

The problem is what game we want. I love play generics too, but I want to win because I created good opportunities (blocks, kill boxes, objetive selection, etc.) not because I put pure efficiency on the table (and my opponent cannot overcome to that).

Althought there is always skill in this game, I bet with this meta there are more talk about (bad) luck.

I think that a game where is difficult to see the skill behind the variance, is not a good game.

This meta is more about dice than ever. That's the problem for me.

I'm curious about the comment that 8 TIE/fo is boring. I bolded a couple sections in your post because I believe 8 TIEs are a great example of a list that requires blocking, kill boxes, and target priority. How is that list boring? (Although I do think the TIE/fo should go back up to 26 points)

Now wookiees? Yeah, they are boring and dumb and ugly and should be 45 points for those sins.

Which squads cause the game to gravitate around efficiency? Just listened to TCX round-up of galactic champ cuts and it sounded like a pretty good mix of Ace and Swarm lists to me. There are corrections to be made but most of them are on the flavor upgrades, not on the generic ships themselves.

5 hours ago, Cuz05 said:

I keep flipping back and forth between Sabers and Alpha's. The Alpha's get to block but the Sabers mostly get to shoot before pop....

In HS, there's not much in the way of talent that I'm finding particularly worth it for them. Lyttans rerolls are very neat but I keep wanting a Tractor Beam to shoot first....

How do you guys fly your Ints? Divide and conquer? double flank? joust?!?

I've been tending to split into wide pairs and push Rampage through the middle, but I don't think it gives him much time. The talon roll/fly-by choice is a pretty critical juncture.

When I fly Interceptors, I try to fly them in some sort of ill-defined cloud or wave-front. The trick is keeping one from getting picked off while the others can't shoot. Sometimes you need to sacrifice shots to keep somebody from getting too far ahead. I have not had more than a handful of games with them though.

And I lied about the build up there. That build is 201. So either drop the hull and go for a bid or take the maneuver assist config. Honestly for Lytan the Maneuver Assist does make some sense. White rolls and blue 3 banks can get you in those side arcs and help keep her alive. Roll into red calc is pretty sweet.

16 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

I just keep feeling FFG is up against the limit of how much bad ships can be buffed by simply increasing their efficiency, and instead of just up-and-down nerfs and buffs, it might be time to go sideways.

It's occurred to me a couple times recently, that ships being 'bad', yet stuck where they are because of spam breakpoints is kind of a not good sign of overall balance.

But there's a lot of factors, on some very different ships, at work there.

Can I also just quickly derail the generics spam = bad because nobody likes 6-8 ships narrative, by referring to quad Phantom, quad Viper, 3-5 other that people have not liked in the past?

I was not a huge fan of playing against 4x Lambda. It wasn't good, but jeez, it was a lot.

1 hour ago, Boom Owl said:

ftfy

If you also ban 6-8 ship lists x-wing players can finally clearly demonstrate their elite skills again.

You take the time you need

To some degree, those of us that have struggled to compete with generics aren't super patient when "Ace" players whinge about not being able to dodge arcs and tank shots by making all their hard decisions after we've moved all our ships.

I've spent years trying to convince people that their high PS/I pilots were too friggin cheap and was told to "git gud." Now generics are starting to put up some wins (For what, like the first time since wave 2 of first edition?) and there's rumblings to "nERf ALL teh geNarIcs!!1!!" or something.

Just a guess.

Edit: Is Blair Bunke still around?

10 minutes ago, gamblertuba said:

I've spent years trying to convince people that their high PS/I pilots were too friggin cheap and was told to "git gud."

Nerf them aces too.

11 minutes ago, gamblertuba said:

Now generics are starting to put up some wins (For what, like the first time since wave 2 of first edition?) and there's rumblings to "nERf ALL teh geNarIcs!!1!!" or something.

A lot of it is probably that there are a lot of still-bad generics, and buffing them the same way all the other generics got buffed isn't going to work, isn't going to make things better. I think there's got to be a place where it stops, where the power level should be re-centered rather than just inflated, so why not here?