Is there a named TIE/ln at I2 that screams, "I'm your Wingleader, OBSIDIANS! Charge!"

As in...will we ever get a interesting match-iniative 2 Imperial swarm to coinflip Howl swarm's Academies?

As @dezzmont suggested, maybe that space is more up FOs alley.

This is how you make a Tie Academy or anything else in the game relevant without leaning into new mechanic injections or drastic swings in point costs.

15 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

This is how you make a Tie Academy or anything else in the game relevant without leaning into new mechanic injections or drastic swings in point costs.

_____________

.......wait, wait, wait...

Guys, I got it.

Beast Squadron

(25) "Night Beast" [TIE/ln Fighter]
(8) Stealth Device
Points: 33

x7 (23) Obsidian Squadron Pilot [TIE/ln Fighter]
Points: 23

Total points: 194

_______________________

Matched I2 pilots.

6 point bid.

No nasty multipliers or formations.

Best part: this is an extended squad!!

(You'll either laugh or cry. Beast don't got no talent slot.)

Okay. Now I just want to run this to be king of the salt mines next store champs.

wave 3 meta my dad brought four acads and four crackshot black squadrons to a store champ, I brought UXXYY with Leia. We met each other on the final table. Good times.

5 minutes ago, Kyle Ren said:

wave 3 meta my dad brought four acads and four crackshot black squadrons to a store champ, I brought UXXYY with Leia. We met each other on the final table. Good times.

You won, right?!?

Sounds epic.

____________

Okay. Here's another Beast Squadron at I2.

Sorry, guys. That's all I got.

Beast Squadron

(25) "Night Beast" [TIE/ln Fighter]
(8) Stealth Device
Points: 33

(23) Obsidian Squadron Pilot [TIE/ln Fighter]
Points: 23

(32) Nu Squadron Pilot [Alpha-class Star Wing]
(6) Ion Cannon
(0) Xg-1 Assault Configuration
Points: 38

(26) Sienar Specialist [TIE/ag Aggressor]
(2) Dorsal Turret
Points: 28

(27) Scimitar Squadron Pilot [TIE/sa Bomber]
(3) Concussion Bombs
(8) Barrage Rockets
Points: 38

(34) "Vagabond" [TIE/sk Striker]
(5) Ion Bombs
(1) Ruthless
Points: 40

Total points: 200

1 hour ago, Kyle Ren said:

random thought experiment
- is the Academy Pilot good?

No

1 hour ago, Kyle Ren said:

- if no, is there any price at which it is good?

Yes

1 hour ago, Kyle Ren said:

- what is that price?

Adjusting ace points up so there's actual differences in generic costs will do it. Then make them more expensive so you can't spam them with toys but can still compete against aces

1 hour ago, Kyle Ren said:

- SHOULD the Academy Pilot ever be good?

Good is band. In the sense of meta defining ship? No. In the sense of a good choice of filler ship? Yes.

1 hour ago, Kyle Ren said:

note I'm speaking about the academy pilot itself, not balancing it around Howlrunner or Palpatine or Sloane or some other force multiplier, imagine we're trying to put it into lists where there's no abilities to make the Academy better (i.e. Vader/Duchess/4TIE or something)

?no

55 minutes ago, Kyle Ren said:

yeah my own personal thoughts on the ship are that it can probably be balanced, since it's mostly just a slightly worse TIE/FO (and TIE/FOs feel great right now even without any weird force multiplier shenanigans or upgrades)

Yup. Biggest change would be finding a points difference where the FO isn't just better for the increment

55 minutes ago, Kyle Ren said:

That being said I'm interested in the answer to the last question, SHOULD it ever be good?

I know people said the Nantex is a weird ship because it just always seems bad, and then it went down so many points that you could fit a number of them that makes people really angry. I feel like a lot of generics are sitting in that weird spot where they're such bad ships (ignoring points) that they either cost way too much and are unplayable trash, or they'll be cheap enough that the community will collectively lose their mind about them.

generic Jumpmasters, generic Strikers, generic Z-95s, generic Nantexes, are all kinda examples of ships that seem that way to me. I wonder if the academy pilot is doomed to forever be a casual-play-only sort of ship, just so it doesn't get so cheap it causes a mass panic?

You can avoid the devil's number by scaling the points up on everything.

@Kyle Ren

I also played a lot of 40k and Infinity (As well as some Warmachine), so it isn't my only background, but I definitely lean into card games a bit more.

In a lot of wargames special abilities are key to prevent the game from becoming a 'firing line' event (Like a joust, but worse because you can endlessly stand still!) and I think X-wing more avoids those sorts of things from being too key due to 1.0 getting a bit too.... spicy with them... rather than them being intrinsically opposed.

I also don't mind if people want to personally play a more basic list. That is fine, I think FO swarm is pretty healthy for example and don't mind flying against it because it isn't so generically strong that it shuts down attempts to do more 'interesting' things like say... Boba or Nantex do with their rather generically powerful statlines and ability to deny interaction. I don't think that a good game is purely about just spamming one thing though, most wargames don't function that way for a reason, because part of what is interesting about wargames is evaluating the state of the board and trying to apply the right tool to the right location, and this is amplified by unit abilities being highly impactful and armed with specialized powerful abilities. 40k would be a less interesting game if Tyranids didn't have access to weird units like Zoanthropes, or Lictor that don't behave at all like a standard unit and which can completely invalidate the traditional things the game values, because it adds to the depth of the tactical puzzle to have something freakish like a Biovore suddenly spawning the equivalent of an autopilot drone with 0 attack from halfway across the board every turn.

One obvious issue though is that in X-wing anything being too much of, ironically, an exhaust port to just dump a torpedo into wouldn't work because lists are so tight and every piece needs to constantly be doing work. In 40k or even Infinity its very normal for units to have downtime, so its not critical if your Librarian can't wade into a fight like your Champion can because its waiting to see if your opponent's HQ wanders near, or to board a troop into a transport to shield it from anti-infantry fire and move it rapidly at the cost of it effectively being dead for the purpose of shooting in 40k, or for your hacker to not really have great offensive hacking targets in Infinity because your up against Ariadna and they literally don't use computers and instead fight against the high tech factions Red Dawn style. In X-wing, a piece just not accomplishing anything for even one turn is crippling, which is where I think it makes it hard to have abilities that are too lopsided or impactful compared to other wargames, more than this being a 'cardgame thing.'

Also, I think there is a lot of validity to grumbling about certain abilities. Sloane may be a great example of a wide ability, but a lot of wide abilities aren't fun.

Honestly, networked is pretty indistinguishable from any old spam list to me, and I don't enjoy playing against it because it gives a generic list all the consistency of a list that decides to include key characters or abilities that could be disrupted, and its just a bit too good at bullying out stuff that aims to be a bit more dynamic and interactive, which ultimately is a bigger problem to me than objective balance. One reason I enjoy fighting oldschool imp aces more than Boba, for example, despite Boba being worse and mostly existing because the imp aces exited hyperspace, because Boba just looks at my dweeby little Esege+Homing A-wings list and goes 'Heh, cute' and smashes through it like it does everything else. Networked also lacks that 'ahah!' moment other very powerful lists have like Imp Aces or Sloane Swarm where you have a clear goal to find a path to victory that your trying to get while your opponent stops you: You never got that 'Hah! Got em!' moment when you kill Vader, or the chance to bully Sloane's carrier with an A-wing landing on its tail forcing your opponent's swarm to either go save her and all in on an A-wing, or stay and fight your main list.

So I guess my stance is "I don't care if you don't want to do space nonsense, as long as I am allowed to do space nonsense and don't get my list's spine broken instantly for trying it.' Which it very often feels in X-wing right now, and a meta generic TIE spam list probably would make that worse, rather than better, for the same reason nantex spam made X-wing... so much worse for me. FO is already kinda on that line and trying to push harder in a faction that could bust out Sloane, even just in extended, is a bit spooky. That said, I also understand a lot of people are VERY wary of too much space nonsense because of 1.0, but that doesn't mean there is no place for nonsense, or even that no list that uses nonsense should be competitive.

7 hours ago, dezzmont said:

In a lot of wargames special abilities are key to prevent the game from becoming a 'firing line' event

All the things Dezz says.

A lot of people will just straight joust all the time, if you give them easy tools. Some of the things you lot want become easy tools.

Gameplay dies fast when 75% of players just mash generics in each other's faces.

You could at least reduce the mat size to a 12x36 strip, so the holdout X Wingers take up less room at the club.

But I guess there will always be some that joust diagonal because they have bigger brains.

Cough. I'm a bit ill and I think this place has narked me this morning, somehow....

4 hours ago, Cuz05 said:

All the things Dezz says.

I just wish they'd be said shorter. =D

Who's a better mid-init high-force interceptor? A midget dyslexic Grinch in an Eta-2 or Nick Fury in his bathrobes and a Delta-7?

13 minutes ago, Hoarder of Garlic Bread said:

Who's a better mid-init high-force interceptor? A midget dyslexic Grinch in an Eta-2 or Nick Fury in his bathrobes and a Delta-7?

Not negligible, the difference between I3 and I4 is. M*****f***er.

40 minutes ago, Cuz05 said:

Not negligible, the difference between I3 and I4 is. M*****f***er.

That's what I was thinking. But The Dyslexic Ketamine-Addict Midget Grinch into some kinky stuff has pre-maneuver reposition, presumably 4 force, probably an amazing ability, and can turtle up easier. The I4 still might be better, until you remember how he died:

Really crazy question:

Is the Academy pilot actually better than the Trade Federation Drone?

Gains: 1 agility, focus action, evade action

Loses: Networked, lock action, linked roll > calculate, Missile slot, Config slot (and chassis/faction exclusive upgrades), blue turns, tallon rolls

I absolutely agree that the Academy and Obsidian should be the same price (and the Black Squadron Ace should be no more than 2 points more than the Academy), but is there any particular reason it needs to cost two points more than a vulture?

24 minutes ago, Hoarder of Garlic Bread said:

pre-maneuver reposition, presumably 4 force, probably an amazing ability, and can turtle up easier.

Hmm. Seems not negligible.

You know roughly where the squirt might be, but doing something about it may prove problematic.

It will possibly depend on whether you want to hurt things with your mid init space wizard. Or faff about and talk funny.

2 hours ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Really crazy question:

Is the Academy pilot actually better than the Trade Federation Drone?

Gains: 1 agility, focus action, evade action

Loses: Networked, lock action, linked roll > calculate, Missile slot, Config slot (and chassis/faction exclusive upgrades), blue turns, tallon rolls

I absolutely agree that the Academy and Obsidian should be the same price (and the Black Squadron Ace should be no more than 2 points more than the Academy), but is there any particular reason it needs to cost two points more than a vulture?

It is absolutely better if you have one of each. It’s probably worse by the time you get to four of each? It’s unquestionably worse when you get to seven of each.

51 minutes ago, AEIllingworth said:

It is absolutely better if you have one of each. It’s probably worse by the time you get to four of each? It’s unquestionably worse when you get to seven of each.

Another way to think about it: Is 25 points of TIE/ln worth more or less than 25 points of Vulture?

Maybe that's arbitrary and slants it very heavily toward the Vulture, but it's inevitable that the Vulture is a much more versatile chassis..

1 hour ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Another way to think about it: Is 25 points of TIE/ln worth more or less than 25 points of Vulture?

Maybe that's arbitrary and slants it very heavily toward the Vulture, but it's inevitable that the Vulture is a much more versatile chassis..

That’s true as well, but I’m also saying I would take 140 points of Vulture over 154 points of academy every time. I might take 80 points of vulture over 88 points of tie fighter. I will always take 22 points of tie fighter over 20 of vulture. All the same proportion of points, but not the same proportion of value.

edit: so they first 25 point chunk I’d go TIE, if I could take 2 or 3 chunks I’d think really hard, and if I get four or more of those chunks I’m Vulture every time.

In value terms, Vultures have higher M and Tie fighters have higher B, mx+b

1 minute ago, AEIllingworth said:

That’s true as well, but I’m also saying I would take 140 points of Vulture over 154 points of academy every time. I might take 80 points of vulture over 88 points of tie fighter. I will always take 22 points of tie fighter over 20 of vulture. All the same proportion of points, but not the same proportion of value.

Right and that does make sense. It gets tricky though when you have to go somewhere between 20-22ish and 80-88ish (as you do in many real lists).

Would you still take 2 TIE/lns over 2 vultures for 44 vs 40?

Would you still take 3 TIE/lns over 3 vultures for 66 vs 60?

Alternatively, suppose struts cost 2 points and were required. 22 point Strut-vultures vs 22 point Academy Pilots. How do they stack up now? Does it still scale by number or does it look more equitable? Would the same apply to missile-vultures vs Talent-TIE/lns?

I guess a lot of this lives in the realm of the hypothetical. Most named TIEs still seem a little expensive. I would prefer to see struts as a 0-pt config on a 21-pt ship than the way it is now (and there should only be 1 point of difference between generics; 10% is way too much to pay for I3 and no talent). If that were the case maybe they would be more on par.

Upper generics also get screwed a lot by excessive I3 initative tax (Scimitar to Gamma is 3 points, Academy to Black is 3 points, etc. I don't know anyone who wants to pay that). I feel like this hurts Empire more but I'm not totally sure why.

Strangely, the older factions that have "more ships" to choose between always feel like they have a lot fewer options, especially if they want to be competitive.

22 hours ago, Bucknife said:

Is there a named TIE/ln at I2 that screams, "I'm your Wingleader, OBSIDIANS! Charge!"

hey you know I never replied to this but I wanted to point out that this is kinda a neat design space.

Would have been cool if all the "leaders" gave their abilities to all their friendly ships of the same squad for example:

if I fly midnight and a bunch of omegas they all get midnight's ability as long as midnight is alive

if I fly scorch and a bunch of zetas they all get scorch's ability as long as scorch is alive

Mauler Mithel + Black Squadron Aces

Scourch Skutu + Obsidians

etc.

38 minutes ago, Kyle Ren said:

hey you know I never replied to this but I wanted to point out that this is kinda a neat design space.

Would have been cool if all the "leaders" gave their abilities to all their friendly ships of the same squad for example:

if I fly midnight and a bunch of omegas they all get midnight's ability as long as midnight is alive

if I fly scorch and a bunch of zetas they all get scorch's ability as long as scorch is alive

Mauler Mithel + Black Squadron Aces

Scourch Skutu + Obsidians

etc.

“Standardized”

I love that idea absolutely but oh my gosh it's terrifying.

1 hour ago, Kyle Ren said:

hey you know I never replied to this but I wanted to point out that this is kinda a neat design space.

Would have been cool if all the "leaders" gave their abilities to all their friendly ships of the same squad for example:

if I fly midnight and a bunch of omegas they all get midnight's ability as long as midnight is alive

if I fly scorch and a bunch of zetas they all get scorch's ability as long as scorch is alive

Mauler Mithel + Black Squadron Aces

Scourch Skutu + Obsidians

etc.

Having a few pilot-specific Talents which had abilities which benefited their specific squads could be a fun design space. Maybe it's not as clean as sharing their pilot ability, but something along those lines could be interesting.

Also, Howlrunner is Obsidian Leader.

11 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

I just wish they'd be said shorter. =D

Listen I have a brand to maintain, and that brand is over-explaining things in a droning repetitive fashion to the point words lose all meaning!

26 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

Having a few pilot-specific Talents which had abilities which benefited their specific squads could be a fun design space. Maybe it's not as clean as sharing their pilot ability, but something along those lines could be interesting.

I am not sure this would be as fun as it seems outside of specific cases like Blue Squad where you have lots of options. It comes across as a bit too "Relentless Rats"-y where it is sorta a prescribed 'monolist' that will never really change.

If it is for Blue Squad though, which has 2 generics and a few named pilots and crew (who ideally would make their ship 'count'), it actually works really well.

2 hours ago, dezzmont said:

Listen I have a brand to maintain, and that brand is over-explaining things in a droning repetitive fashion to the point words lose all meaning!

Ironically this is the post that was short enough that I read the whole thing.

4 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

Having a few pilot-specific Talents which had abilities which benefited their specific squads could be a fun design space. Maybe it's not as clean as sharing their pilot ability, but something along those lines could be interesting.

Also, Howlrunner is Obsidian Leader.

Maybe make it an additional benefit to having the leader and their wingmates.

Ex. Obsidian Squadron, 0 Points, must have Howlrunner and at least 2 Obsidian Squad Pilots, Obsidian Squad Pilot Only

When you would suffer your first face-up damage card this game, you may flip it face-down. (Or any ability, Obsidian is just tough stuff so crit resist i guess)

Or, this:

Obsidian Squadron Ace, 2 pips, same restrictions as above, but an actual points cost probably

Increase this pilot's printed initiative value by 1. (If the above upgrade isn't in the game, give them that ability as well or whatever ability seems fitting.)

Ideally, every generic squad ship gets one of these to some effect, but this probably works best in a world without faction talents so that selfless/ruthless/etc can be used as a squad effect.