6 minutes ago, Bucknife said:

@Kyle Ren;

Your question is close to correct.

The question is:

I will never take an obsidian pilot if it costs even 1 more point than an academy.

Edit: I may not take it if they cost the same either, I think it depends on expected meta.

I would say that the agency gained in the competitive field by moving from I1 to I2 is so negligible, and that the blocking agency lost against that same percentage of the field is substantial.

The Academy and Obsidian should be the same price.

Fite me.

15 minutes ago, Kyle Ren said:

- is the Academy Pilot good?
- if no, is there any price at which it is good?
- what is that price?
- SHOULD the Academy Pilot ever be good?

I think at 22 pts 3-6 ACDs can, should, and have for brief periods of time been useful in hyperspace if the gates of fort hyperspace remain strong. For hyper as with most things its less about what they cost and more about what stuff is allowed to exist around them. Ban the Tie Advanced v1 and ACDs suddenly become one of my go to filler ships within Hyper again.

In extended, if you applied a Soontir/Obi/Kylo-Adjusted Point Scale to an ACD like Nantex & Wookies needed to get noticed the ACD would probably be 4-6 pts cheaper than it is now.

1 minute ago, Boom Owl said:

ACD would probably be 4-6 pts cheaper than it is now.

".....but Ruuuuthlessss!?!"

1 minute ago, Bucknife said:

The Academy and Obsidian should be the same price.

Fite me.

I uh

I think we all agree on that yeah

Did you have any thoughts about the original questions?

Just now, Bucknife said:

".....but Ruuuuthlessss!?!"

Good point. Give ACDs a talent slot as well. That is deserved, interesting, and would help.

3 minutes ago, Kyle Ren said:

I uh

I think we all agree on that yeah

Did you have any thoughts about the original questions?

Nah. Not really. Just trolling.

Based on the vulture scale, ACDs could probably be 20.

Pricing 3agi chassis below vulture spam is probably a very bad idea....

____________

Edit:

But then I'd probably get my 9pt Protorps back...so...win, win?

19pt ACDs, baby. Make it happen.

the answer for extended at least is to raise ace taxes.

always has been.

yeah my own personal thoughts on the ship are that it can probably be balanced, since it's mostly just a slightly worse TIE/FO (and TIE/FOs feel great right now even without any weird force multiplier shenanigans or upgrades)

That being said I'm interested in the answer to the last question, SHOULD it ever be good?

I know people said the Nantex is a weird ship because it just always seems bad, and then it went down so many points that you could fit a number of them that makes people really angry. I feel like a lot of generics are sitting in that weird spot where they're such bad ships (ignoring points) that they either cost way too much and are unplayable trash, or they'll be cheap enough that the community will collectively lose their mind about them.

generic Jumpmasters, generic Strikers, generic Z-95s, generic Nantexes, are all kinda examples of ships that seem that way to me. I wonder if the academy pilot is doomed to forever be a casual-play-only sort of ship, just so it doesn't get so cheap it causes a mass panic?

Just now, Boom Owl said:

the answer for extended at least is to raise ace taxes.

always has been.

Aces are fair. (Yay, Soontir?)

Mafia are not.

And by mafia, were talking Boba Fett and any small base with 3 force.

20 minutes ago, Kyle Ren said:

note I'm speaking about the academy pilot itself, not balancing it around Howlrunner or Palpatine or Sloane or some other force multiplier, imagine we're trying to put it into lists where there's no abilities to make the Academy better (i.e. Vader/Duchess/4TIE or something)

Well this stipulation makes this all sorta a flight of fancy right? Any attempt to discuss a given piece should generally assume it has the support tools avalable to it in faction.

Empire is in part designed around having very strong offensive wide boosts that make cheap spam ships very scary. So unless your asking this in a hypothetical world where they nerf Howl and Palps and Sloane out of existence it doesn't make much sense to look at the pilot outside that context, because if you balance outside that context it just is far too good inside it.

Or, to put it another way: every Rebel TIE would probably be more expensive if ported directly to empire with no changes for a reason. Zeb is literally 1 point cheaper than an Obsidian pilot for this reason, despite having an ability while the Obsidian doesn't at 2 initiative.

Config, TIE/ln, Improved Ion Engines - "After defending, if you were assigned at least one damage card by that attack, you may perform a red [evade] action."

I think the damage wording needs refinement, but something like this is what they need. (Instead of Iden.)

1 minute ago, dezzmont said:

Well this stipulation makes this all sorta a flight of fancy right? Any attempt to discuss a given piece should generally assume it has the support tools avalable to it in faction.

Empire is in part designed around having very strong offensive wide boosts that make cheap spam ships very scary. So unless your asking this in a hypothetical world where they nerf Howl and Palps and Sloane out of existence it doesn't make much sense to look at the pilot outside that context, because if you balance outside that context it just is far too good inside it.

Or, to put it another way: every Rebel TIE would probably be more expensive if ported directly to empire with no changes for a reason. Zeb is literally 1 point cheaper than an Obsidian pilot for this reason, despite having an ability while the Obsidian doesn't at 2 initiative.

are you happier if I tell you that I do not play extended unless I'm forced to, so I'm talking about Hyperspace balance?

Just now, Kyle Ren said:

are you happier if I tell you that I do not play extended unless I'm forced to, so I'm talking about Hyperspace balance?

2 minutes ago, Kyle Ren said:

are you happier if I tell you that I do not play extended unless I'm forced to, so I'm talking about Hyperspace balance?

Hyperspace still has force multipliers, and likely always will because its such a key part of the factional identity for Empire, so no, not really.

If they stripped them all away, yes I guess they could go down some points, but it would also make the game much less interesting. Maybe if there were HS exclusive points?

2 minutes ago, Jeff Wilder said:

Config, TIE/ln, Improved Ion Engines - "After defending, if you were assigned at least one damage card by that attack, you may perform a red [evade] action."

I think the damage wording needs refinement, but something like this is what they need. (Instead of Iden.)

something like Warthog would probably be my fix, but of course I've always been of the opinion that Warthog should be a core game rule

2 minutes ago, Kyle Ren said:

something like Warthog would probably be my fix, but of course I've always been of the opinion that Warthog should be a core game rule

Surely point increases or bans to the field could get to the same place without just tossing more passive mods around.

17 minutes ago, AEIllingworth said:

I will never take an obsidian pilot if it costs even 1 more point than an academy.

Edit: I may not take it if they cost the same either, I think it depends on expected meta.

Ding, ding, ding!

Just now, dezzmont said:

Hyperspace still has force multipliers, and likely always will because its such a key part of the factional identity for Empire, so no, not really.

If they stripped them all away, yes I guess they could go down some points, but it would also make the game much less interesting.

do force multipliers make the game interesting for you? this is a genuine question

every time I've played a list with force multipliers, lining up in a formation and flying around like one big ship, I've had fun with the first 1-5 reps where I'm figuring it out and then gotten really bored, but I'm interested in hearing other perspectives on this

1 minute ago, Boom Owl said:

Sure point increases or bans to the field could get to the same place without just tossing more passive mods around.

sorry, I meant Warthog's pilot ability, not the ship ability, forgot how many words that thing has

2 minutes ago, Kyle Ren said:

do force multipliers make the game interesting for you? this is a genuine question

every time I've played a list with force multipliers, lining up in a formation and flying around like one big ship, I've had fun with the first 1-5 reps where I'm figuring it out and then gotten really bored, but I'm interested in hearing other perspectives on this

2e multipliers have been so range-strapped to prevent abuse and increase "skill" requirements, that I generally don't bother with them for the same reasons you described.

They're either too strong or too limiting to midgame play.

5 minutes ago, Kyle Ren said:

do force multipliers make the game interesting for you? this is a genuine question

No but abilities that cause different lists to fly differently do.

Obviously different variants of 'wide swarms with some buff' are more or less different than each other and X-wing needs to work on that, but X-wing always felt the most boring when you never had to approach a list differently due to something or another. Howlrunner or Sloane existing as high value target changes how you approach that list and rewards different things (I may be biased because I love torps, so having a big obvious glowing weakpoint to shoot is fun for me!), and Sloane's unique effect on blasting away at the swarm especially changes how you approach it. Likewise, the fact that my opponent knows I got a big torp with Howl's name on it forces them to fly the swarm a bit differently in turn, so the matchup becomes different for us both having unique 'gimmicks.'

Not all effects are created equal (Networked calc is kiiiinda interesting because the swarm dividing up works differently, but ultimately it just makes droid swarms very consistent and deadly and while there is potential interaction it feels like fighting a generic swarm which just has everything 'perfectly' modded at all times), but in general I prefer effects, especially 'lopsided' ones that give both lists a clear goal interacting with each other.

The game doesn't need to become full Cosmic Encounter space nonsense, but unique effects help keep the same archetype in different factions from being identical. FO could probably be allowed to have exclusive access to generic TIE swarms, as X-wing can't really support too many different variants of subtly different stated swarms anyway. Like one is going to be better than the other, especially if the ships are very similar with similar dials and capabilities, and just be the 'main variant' compared to something with a bit more interplay. Like how a palp Lambda creates an interesting dynamic of a ship you really want to kill, and which is easy to maintain uptime on, but takes a while to down so the people defending it can punish you if you go in too hard.

So anything that discourages flying all generics of the same type is good in my book: An interesting list has at least one interaction going on they are trying to exploit and your opponent is trying to stop, IMO.

Just now, Bucknife said:

2e multipliers have been so range-strapped to prevent abuse and increase "skill" requirements, that I generally don't bother with them for the same reasons you described.

well like uh, I know it's counterintuitive but I think range-strapping decreases the skill requirement because it increases mobile fortressing, where I set up in a formation and fly around the board edge as one big ship. That kind of thing is only interesting while you're figuring it out, and the geometry is pretty simple so once you do it's very repetitive.

Another problem I have with force multipliers is they make your list not scale linearly in power as you lose ships, so once you start losing you keep being at a greater and greater disadvantage, which means the game is often over after the first engage. I like caring about the whole game, not just going through the motions for an hour as I did so frequently in first edition.

7 minutes ago, Kyle Ren said:

sorry, I meant Warthog's pilot ability, not the ship ability, forgot how many words that thing has

Unironically quoted the wrong post haha. Was referring to the take damage get evade idea. I still think Bans and a limited card pool are a very real and achievable path to the meta where the Aces get to be Aces and experience slightly muted but still entertaining plot armor at roughly the same costs as now, paired with random nonsense ships like the ACD being relevant as filler or w/e else without deep cut point costs or "fixes".

Its actually possible.

You have 3 choices:

• Bans
• Raise Ace Taxes
• Reduce Generic Taxes
• Combination of all of the above

Each of these will upset someone and any of them could work to make anything relevant so it boils down to meta preference, words tolerance, and swarm tolerance.

@dezzmont that's an interesting perspective, thanks for sharing. iirc you come from a card game background? I usually think of X-Wing as a minis game but I guess it's a decently good card game too, don't know much about card games though.

Usually the card-game and minis-game perspectives on the game can mostly peacefully coexist, so maybe the force multiplier thing is just one of those cases where making the card game part more interesting directly makes the board game part less interesting (and vice versa)? seems to be a perpetually tricky tradeoff that the devs have to make in this game