There likely won’t be a 3.0, we already have diminishing returns on 2.0. I think X-Wing dies with 2.0 and they will just make something else.

Just now, Bucknife said:

X-Wing is a minis game.... arguably the finest Star Wars fans have ever gotten, both in gameplay and in model quality.

That’s not raising the bar overly high...

• Pocket models?
• Decipher CCG
• numerous fast slap of the Star Wars name on cheap crud

Although Looping Chewie...

2 hours ago, Cuz05 said:

Is 6x RZ-2 a swarm? Because that's horrible. Bin it.

It’s a swarm.

I agree.

50 minutes ago, 5050Saint said:

Would it be fair to say conversion kits were bad for gameplay balance, but to not do conversion kit would have been bad for the game?

I know that many people would not have stayed playing the game if conversion kits hadn't existed. But I also see that Rebels definitely seem like the first designed faction. And at the risk of annoying some folks, I'll reiterate that many of the scummy stuff that Scum does gets done better CIS as if Scum had been the test for that faction.

It would have been fine for the game. The barrier to new players is always the main concern (see: MTG). The attrition and lack of excitement, as well as having to design the entire OT factions all at once (without the experience of actually seeing 2.0 played en masse) was a mistake, and just led to a slow decline instead.

46 minutes ago, Hoarder of Garlic Bread said:

If 3.0 comes out any sooner than 5 years from now, I'm out. 2.0 was the competitive retweak of a beer and pretzels game that did surprisingly well. If 3.0 drops, I'll look for another miniatures game that scratches the same itch but doesn't revamp so often. Which probably means a discontinued miniatures game, but hey, you can shoot Craig or shoot with him in the fan-made expansions for Halo: Ground Command.

45 minutes ago, Hoarder of Garlic Bread said:

I just don't know if 3.0 will further tweak the game any more meaningfully than 2.0 will. At its chassis, X-Wing is a casual game, even if I am one of those taking it far too seriously. It's based on the Wings of War/Glory format!

It’s probably that far away? I mean, no reason to scrap it now, right?

44 minutes ago, Jeff Wilder said:

I have something like 200 models. It's fair to say that if I ever have to rebuy those models to play the game, I'll (with sadness) give up the game.

Note a couple of things: (1) That happening might not have a single thing to do with FFG. I could lose my models in a fire, and insurance not pay replacement cost, for instance. (2) I can see my personal viewpoint reaching an untenable point for FFG if too many people hold it: if they reach the point where they can't sell models, it's tough for me to see how X-Wing survives. And people currently have so. Many. Models.

I have no idea how to resolve that tension, and I admit the thought of it makes me uneasy. I love X-Wing. (I also hate X-Wing. I don't even feel like that's in the least contradictory.)

They could still make card packs. Just not have ALL old stuff pre-designed.

we could all be waiting with baited breath for the interceptor and b-wing rereleases along with prequel faction ships.

but we’re not, because we all already know what the ships are, and have them.

20 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

we could all be waiting with baited breath for the interceptor and b-wing rereleases along with prequel faction ships.

but we’re not, because we all already know what the ships are, and have them.

New b-wings are coming out! Do I pay the extra money for the new flappy foils or just get the pack for bases and cards?

How are they doing 2.0 soontir fel? I haven't had a chance to play my interceptors in forever!

I want to go to there.

3 minutes ago, jagsba said:

New b-wings are coming out! Do I pay the extra money for the new flappy foils or just get the pack for bases and cards?

How are they doing 2.0 soontir fel? I haven't had a chance to play my interceptors in forever!

I want to go to there.

"I wonder what the new chassis abilities for interceptors and b-wings are?!"

"Flappy b-wings>?!? maybe I'll buy the model rather than the wave-card pack! decisions, decisions..."

Yeah, I want to live in that universe too... Same team.

To @Biophysical's question.

Chewie and 3 X-wings? Is that about as unlikely to make people mad as anything? Two of the most iconic movie ships. No high initiative, no force, only 4 ships. Maybe too beefy? I can't imagine throwing that on the table and having too many people say "Oh no, not this !$#@% again."

2 hours ago, LagJanson said:

• Pocket models?

p o c k e t m o d e l s

Just imagine the hype level of B-Wings and Interceptors coming back after so long.

Rebels, Empire, and Scum would get regular new releases. Beloved ships would get the design time they deserve. New players wouldn't have to track down out of production models. There would be more new players.

Catering to established players is nice for us, but they're probably not making much from it. The conversion kits were likely sold at a loss. Reprints didn't appear to make much of a splash. Churn is what keeps games going.

38 minutes ago, Chumbalaya said:

Just imagine the hype level of B-Wings and Interceptors coming back after so long.

Rebels, Empire, and Scum would get regular new releases. Beloved ships would get the design time they deserve. New players wouldn't have to track down out of production models. There would be more new players.

Catering to established players is nice for us, but they're probably not making much from it. The conversion kits were likely sold at a loss. Reprints didn't appear to make much of a splash. Churn is what keeps games going.

same team, 3.0 without conversion kits let's go

https://strawpoll.com/ov2h5ubbh

In your anti-extended crusade you are underestimating the backlash and players drop ffg would have get if no conversion kit happening meant people could bin entire collections

And also wtf is that spam, i wanted to answer something but now it's 6 pages behind....

Some weeks ago, just at the first rise of Spamtex, I asked at play night (yes, Europe, we play physically, but under a very strict hygiene regime) how many would be willing to convert to a 3rd edition, if it came in the near future.

Answer: zero.

That said, I might be too pessimistic, but I expect sadly though, that the active game ends 2023, when FFG is due to license renewal. Disney is bleeding extremely right now, they badly need revenue the next years. So probably license fees will go up. And FFG's business model is keeping costs really low.

FFG has quickly drawn the plug on licensed games in the past.

4 minutes ago, Managarmr said:

Some weeks ago, just at the first rise of Spamtex, I asked at play night (yes, Europe, we play physically, but under a very strict hygiene regime) how many would be willing to convert to a 3rd edition, if it came in the near future.

Answer: zero.

I think you would have had the same answer in 2015 if you have asked about a second edition of the game.

I don't understand the FFG business, but there are another Miniatures Games with several reeditions.

1 hour ago, Sunitsa said:

And also wtf is that spam, i wanted to answer something but now it's 6 pages behind...

Please, do it. I'm intrigued.

20 hours ago, Boom Owl said:

_________________________________________________________

Question #2:

Are any of the below lists "good"? Do they have a reasonable (50/50) win condition in the matchup vs the boogeyman & the field? Or are they unnecessarily hard mode?

• Vader Burners + Redline Adv Torps + GI = 199
• Vader Burners + Whisper Bro TC + GI = 200
• Vader FCS Procket Burners + Echo Bro Sensors + GI = 198
• Vader IA FCS Procket Burners + Soontir Crack TC + GI IA Prockets = 200
• Soontir Predator Shield + GI IA Prockets + Redline Adv Torps Seismic = 200
• Something with more Pre-Movement I guess
• Something with Ani Obi Plo I guess

To have a fighting chance you need something that can trade the most exposed pieces of the list with more nantex points and then can prevent Nantex to score more. I'm not that experienced with Empire aces, but I don't think any of this fit the description unless you can bait the nantex player into poor engages, but that would require the nantex player to be either bad or inexperienced so you can't relay on that

20 hours ago, Boom Owl said:

_________________________________________________________

Question #4:

If i3 and i4 Nantex go up 2-3 points will you still be mad?

If i3 and i4 Nantex are increased enough to only fit 6 without any upgrades would you still be mad?

_________________________________________________________

I don't get why you use the word "mad" there, are you really arguing that nantex are fine now? Because saying Nantex are broken doesn't sound daring or crazy to me.

You can be fine with them, as your point 5 seems to imply: that's ok, we had years of people being fine with the many atrocious broken things in the past. But I don't think wanting a more balanced extended should be called "being mad"

What I'm mad about it's that Vader crew is still just 14 points while still having greater value than any other single upgrade in the game... Actionless r0-2 jam would be broken even without the autodamage part of it ffs...

20 hours ago, Tlfj200 said:

I wanted to come back to this, actually.

FWIW, while some may make histrionic claims that "no one" will buy 6, I want to note when *I* say it, I mean that "few" or "lower numbers" will do it. 6/54 = 11%.

Now, we know it did well, but let's focus on meta penetration - we know that swarms have never represented a significant portion of the overall meta, and it appears so because people really don't enjoy playing swarms.

We see that representation jump online, and I suspect (this is a hypothesis) because of all the automation involved with TTS/vassal. I bet, when rubber hits the road and players have to physically move those ships over hours and hours, people will shy away from those lists (or perform significantly worse with them).

I could very well be wrong, but we never saw vultures hit a large % of the overall meta, and as @Brunas noted, vultures actually had a ~70% win rate last season. Still, people didn't go and pick them up in droves (and it cost about the same to have a vulture swarm as 6 nantex).

5 Nantex players at our tournament didn't buy 6 nantex: they borrowed them from other people, most of them came from 3 or even 4 different sources. I can't speak about the 6th player only because I didn't ask him, but I assume it was the same for him.

But I agree that Nantex are probably easier to play online: I think it's easier to valutate bullseye in tts, and even more in vassal, than real life

18 hours ago, Tlfj200 said:

Oh! @Sunitsa @GreenDragoon

I forgot - I have all the raw data

2017 (mindlink)

2016 (palp aces and "triple jumps")

So you can go and define mindlink any way you wish. If you think triple jumps was really it's own archetype - have at. (Just go and make a copy)
This, of course, would mean mindlink would be a smaller % of that meta, for instance.

Also, @GreenDragoon - I was supposed to get back to you about something, and completely forgot. What was it?

But I just wanted to make a little joke, not get more work upon myself!

It also seems you had already separated data for paratanni, 3 scouts and other lists. Now I'm even more confused on why you guys considered those lists being similar enough to aggregate them in the "published" data.

(but again, I don't really wanted to spark this discussion again, it was long ago, I don't really care that much now)

13 hours ago, Stay OT Leader said:

It’s a common misconception that more ships = longer games. Nothing wastes time and drags out 75+ minutes better than a regen Jedi list.

While is definitely true that usually aces regenning players spend way more time thinking about manouvers on average, playing a swarm take definitely more time (assuming same time spent thinking) just because you need to physically manouver more ships on the mat and resolve more bumps.

So this "no conversion kits" stuff doesn't sound like "no conversion kits" to me.

It sounds like "new conversion kits every wave." They'd be smaller conversion kits, but still new kits. Every wave you buy a Wave Kit.

Seems like there's a few benefits.

• Wave kits almost surely wouldn't contain ships that haven't been re-released. Phantoms were never gunboat-problematic to acquire, but it's still kinda BS that the "best" stuff is potentially hard to find out-of-print stuff.
• Hyperspace levels of balance are enabled, with a slower roll-out of new ships that can remain on relatively even design levels.
• New upgrades can be easily distributed to everyone, and new mechanics that arise will show up. Deplete and Strain are things that could have gone onto more ships in legacy factions, under a "Wave Kit" format. Everyone gets Afterburners and Agile Gunner and Composure and Autoblasters, and these other upgrades that haven't always been widely available.
• It eliminates the problem of "completeness" in the legacy factions. Like, there's been a long feeling that Rebels are "over" and that there's not really new stuff for them.

Downside?

• I can't use 75% of my stuff. That's kind of a doozy.

35 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

So this "no conversion kits" stuff doesn't sound like "no conversion kits" to me.

It sounds like "new conversion kits every wave." They'd be smaller conversion kits, but still new kits. Every wave you buy a Wave Kit.

Seems like there's a few benefits.

• Wave kits almost surely wouldn't contain ships that haven't been re-released. Phantoms were never gunboat-problematic to acquire, but it's still kinda BS that the "best" stuff is potentially hard to find out-of-print stuff.
• Hyperspace levels of balance are enabled, with a slower roll-out of new ships that can remain on relatively even design levels.
• New upgrades can be easily distributed to everyone, and new mechanics that arise will show up. Deplete and Strain are things that could have gone onto more ships in legacy factions, under a "Wave Kit" format. Everyone gets Afterburners and Agile Gunner and Composure and Autoblasters, and these other upgrades that haven't always been widely available.
• It eliminates the problem of "completeness" in the legacy factions. Like, there's been a long feeling that Rebels are "over" and that there's not really new stuff for them.

Downside?

• I can't use 75% of my stuff. That's kind of a doozy.

Fig gets an A+ for reading what people have been saying 💕

1 hour ago, Sunitsa said:

I don't get why you use the word "mad" there, are you really arguing that nantex are fine now? Because saying Nantex are broken doesn't sound daring or crazy to me.

Just used it generically. Translate "mad" to "would you still prefer a more significant points increase".

For context playing Hyperspace I am already playing against their Talentless equivalents. They are still solid but they are essentially "post nerfed" and have had their talent slot restricted to a more defensive option in Gravitic (which does some interesting stuff at 5 pts as a side note). Hyperspace Nantex might be a rough equivalent to a "future" extended timeline already (there is more Greivous + Nantex etc.)

I could see a 2 pt increase to the i3 and i4s, that would not surprise me. That amount of increase would disrupt the hyperspace variants on the Nantex lists pretty substantially (even though I am not 100% sure that its necessary in Hyperspace ).

So yea the question is mostly about what the line is where the community will accept a Nantex nerf?

Question #4 Updated for @Sunitsa:

If i3 and i4 Nantex go up 2-3 points is that acceptable?

If i3 and i4 Nantex are increased enough to only fit 6 without any upgrades is that acceptable?

If i3 and i4 Nantex are increased to 33 and 34 respectively is that acceptable?

Or is the community looking for something more intense like +6-10 pts?

i was asked to look for fun lists that exist in hyperspace resistance

i looked for 45 seconds and found ???

this is just force tokens for t70s??? ??????

If nantex aren't nerfed into oblivion, which would be ok for me, I would at the very least seen the ship ability errated to "fully execute" (and probably also not overlapping obstacles).

With that in action, I think 6 ps3 nantex with crackshot won't be too bad for the meta: it would allow a raise of ps 4 ships to counter them without making them completely useless since their ace and lower ps swarm game still be incredibly strong.

So to summarize: crackshot ps 3 to 32-33 and no more cheating on bumps

If they will still be problematic, let's nuke them from orbit, but I don't think they would be

5 minutes ago, svelok said:

i was asked to look for fun lists that exist in hyperspace resistance

i looked for 45 seconds and found ???

this is just force tokens for t70s??? ??????

Read it again

Strain for a Calc on a bunch of 7-health T-70s seems OK.

I think 4 point increase for both generic Nantexes is the way to go. And bring up crackshot to three at some point too. 5 Petranaki Aces with Gravitic and Crack Shot is still stronger list than I would like to see be possible.

1 minute ago, theBitterFig said:

Strain for a Calc on a bunch of 7-health T-70s seems OK.

And you'd want to make sure you closed the foils at the start of the turn for the maneuerability else you're also just looking at losing an attack die unless you all bullseye. Not a difficult hurdle but still something you have to plan for.

2 hours ago, Sunitsa said:

5 Nantex players at our tournament didn't buy 6 nantex: they borrowed them from other people, most of them came from 3 or even 4 different sources. I can't speak about the 6th player only because I didn't ask him, but I assume it was the same for him.

But I agree that Nantex are probably easier to play online: I think it's easier to valutate bullseye in tts, and even more in vassal, than real life

I actually do that myself - if this were physical tournaments, I'd just borrow three more nantexes (I own three), but I'm not buying 3 more for maybe 1-2 tournaments this season.

Also, people will mess up their bullseyes and BRs on a physical table way more often (and bump). and get exhausted. People just play swarms less on real tables.

**none of this excuses the power level - this is a comment on the weirdness that swarms haven't caught on more on physical tables.

2 hours ago, Sunitsa said:

But I just wanted to make a little joke, not get more work upon myself!

It also seems you had already separated data for paratanni, 3 scouts and other lists. Now I'm even more confused on why you guys considered those lists being similar enough to aggregate them in the "published" data.

(but again, I don't really wanted to spark this discussion again, it was long ago, I don't really care that much now)

While is definitely true that usually aces regenning players spend way more time thinking about manouvers on average, playing a swarm take definitely more time (assuming same time spent thinking) just because you need to physically manouver more ships on the mat and resolve more bumps.

Actually, I think I'll just do it myself.

But the originally premise was that people would see the spread out lists and be mad because they would see the "diluted" data and say "mindlink is really everywhere, and not combinining this is a travesty". I'll just separate the data.

1 hour ago, theBitterFig said:

So this "no conversion kits" stuff doesn't sound like "no conversion kits" to me.

It sounds like "new conversion kits every wave." They'd be smaller conversion kits, but still new kits. Every wave you buy a Wave Kit.

Seems like there's a few benefits.

• Wave kits almost surely wouldn't contain ships that haven't been re-released. Phantoms were never gunboat-problematic to acquire, but it's still kinda BS that the "best" stuff is potentially hard to find out-of-print stuff.
• Hyperspace levels of balance are enabled, with a slower roll-out of new ships that can remain on relatively even design levels.
• New upgrades can be easily distributed to everyone, and new mechanics that arise will show up. Deplete and Strain are things that could have gone onto more ships in legacy factions, under a "Wave Kit" format. Everyone gets Afterburners and Agile Gunner and Composure and Autoblasters, and these other upgrades that haven't always been widely available.
• It eliminates the problem of "completeness" in the legacy factions. Like, there's been a long feeling that Rebels are "over" and that there's not really new stuff for them.

Downside?

• I can't use 75% of my stuff. That's kind of a doozy.

You're right - we're really saying these conversion kits were a mistake.

The mistake is that no one has any reason to be excited for wave releases - we know what 80% of the content is going to be: we know what all the OT faction content is: the chassis abilities, the pilots, the upgrades, and we know it for years.

It's boring, and the devs had to make that decision without and real 2.0 data beyond early tester data (no live, table data from players).

The lack of excitement just means the game suffers a slow death, and the devs can't correct or improve the OT factions. It's a straight lose/lose.

You focus on "i can't play my collection" - I bet you'd quit and come back. Even if I'm wrong, new players would fill the gaps. It happens literally all the time in other games - there's copious data on that.

They could have done both thought: what stopped them for adding new pilots to reprinted ships while providing an hotshot like pack? That could have coexisted with conversion pack which would still be some very needed good gesture toward the players