15 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

Yeah... that was never true...

I mean, the real answer was no conversion kits.

Conversion kits were a mistake

5 minutes ago, catachanninja said:

I would be curious to see how your locals felt about playing matchups like 5 vs 7. One thing I can say for people hating swarms, once the number of ships hits double digits ish (a very scientific number) the gamestate can really bog down with marking ships and properly measuring overlaps, plus arc checks etc. There is significantly unfun "surgery" that has to occur.

x wing life hack that I want to try to put out more, and or get shouted down if people hate it. When marking ships for bumps or measuring in close priority where hitting a ship with a range ruler is a potential problem, I will have disuccsion about the arcs of ships at risk of getting messed up, that have already moved. "Hey before i mark torrent to move obi wan through it, Im like 90% sure it has arc on your fifth brother, do you agree? can we measure now because it's important and i don't think we can impact it later because you're obviously shooting at the other damaged torrent?"

5 vs. 6 or 7 is pretty typical in our group. I mean, back when we all got together and played. The locals have also gotten pretty fast---8-9 rounds usually was a minimum now, double digits the norm, but they've put in the reps. Moving all those ships gets done pretty quick vs a couple of years ago. There's a lot of trust that's been built up. In the monthly tournaments, it really wasn't an issue, to be honest. The deconstruction of game state to check arcs is efficient and non combative, that's where the majority of this game's player base excels. When I did the judge thing at Texas SOS I was dreading that part of the assignment, but to my surprise it was pleasantly speedy. And don't many doctors like to talk during surgery? It can be a fun social moment too!

12 minutes ago, Stay OT Leader said:

You realise that ‘people’ doesn’t exist and is made up of individuals who all like different things? Whatever is good ‘people’ will hate it and ‘people’ will like it. This is why listening to ‘people’ is a waste of time and coming to your own conclusions as a strong independent black woman who don’t need no man is important.

Not why I asked the question, but you do you.

4 hours ago, Tlfj200 said:

I still remember the shock when I suggest random die rolls for first player.

Still "remember" it? People still make a face like they spontaneously sharted when it comes up.

(Fewer and fewer, incrementally, though. That's the way it will happen.)

7 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

Man, you have have had a significantly different swarm-on-swarm experience than I have.

Once ship count reaches double digits, things just... die, and fast. I haven't had double digit games not reach completion before time.

I guess I should clarify what i mean by "bog down" doing all the marking/replacing/alternate template placement/ maintaining game state is not particularly enjoyable. I have also found that things die and like that part a lot.

16 minutes ago, jagsba said:

Conversion kits were a mistake

Yes they were.

17 minutes ago, jagsba said:

Conversion kits were a mistake

Not sure I understand the why of this?

4 hours ago, Boom Owl said:

Thats sarcasm right?

4 hours ago, Tlfj200 said:

It can be both

53 minutes ago, Spinland said:

Not sure I understand the why of this?

Neither do I. They made me.

I've played vs a lot of swarms, people seem to like them round here, I guess. All sorts too. I enjoy it, but by the end of UKSO, it did get a bit tiring with the Vultures.

It takes a lot of work to fly well against a good swarm and while I'm fine with that on a less heavy schedule, if it's a predominant thing on a regular basis, it does become less fun for me. It's just intense and I prefer a more open, shifting, cat and mouse trade. It's kinda relaxing after some heavy swarm shifts.

I'm not a swarm player at all. I've only flown 6+ on a couple of occasions, outside epic. I like 5 a lot. Which is not a swarm.

I'm sure I've read in here that swarms are hard to balance because one generally rises to the top and then becomes oppressive. If that is the case, then it's a shame. The more variety in swarm lists you face, the longer it stays fun to face them. They have different approaches, requirements etc. etc. You know these things, I just try and cope.

I'd be very happy with half a dozen, or more?, decent 7/8 ship variations that were.... viable... but not oppressive. If that can even be.

Different formats/environments/objectives are really interesting and massively enjoyable. There are a bunch where you just look at the opposing build and think 'aw crud' though.

Is 6x RZ-2 a swarm? Because that's horrible. Bin it.

1 hour ago, jagsba said:

Conversion kits were a mistake

Without conversion kits the game would in many areas just have died. People were pretty fed up at the end of 1st ed. In our local club maybe two people would have been OK to re-buy the game, the rest would have quit for good.

With conversion kits people were kept in the game and had less threshold to buy new stuff later.

1 hour ago, Spinland said:

Not sure I understand the why of this?

It's a long conversation. But the big ones for me are about balance.

Starting with a smaller pool and adding pieces bit by bit is easier to balance than trying to figure out the permutations of a much bigger pool.

Spending time converting ships all at once means that there was less time spent on the balance and theme of each ship. By testing and releasing ships bit by bit they'd have more time to make sure all the ships and cards are fun, thematic, and balanced.

19 minutes ago, Managarmr said:

Without conversion kits the game would in many areas just have died.

Yep. I'm not sure I know anybody local who would have simply re-purchased everything. (I'm sure there's someone -- there always is -- but not many.)

5 minutes ago, Jeff Wilder said:

Yep. I'm not sure I know anybody local who would have simply re-purchased everything. (I'm sure there's someone -- there always is -- but not many.)

I don't think those arguing against conversion kits (or at least myself) are arguing against the idea of conversion kits outright - it's the manner in which everything was ported and dumped on everyone at once.

If for example, at the launch of 2e, there was a "conversion kit", but it only had ships that had been rereleased full into second edition so you didn't need to buy new models, and then in future waves when ships were re-released each wave had an "update pack" or whatever you'd want to call the pack of cardboard/cards would be the desire instead.

Basically, it's really obvious a lot of work when into the design of the initial re-released ships, and very little went into that in conversion kits. That's not a knock against the developers - there's a huge amount of stuff in the kits, the fact that things have gone as well as they have is a miracle.

Lots of interesting perspectives on the conversion kits; thanks for sharing those.

My take on them is inexperienced and selfish: as a n00b to the game I've been enjoying the process of getting the kits and back-filling them with used ships to ramp up my collection. I expect if I came into this with a 1e background I'd have a different take.

5 minutes ago, Brunas said:

I don't think those arguing against conversion kits (or at least myself) are arguing against the idea of conversion kits outright - it's the manner in which everything was ported and dumped on everyone at once.

Gotcha. I have my own well-documented problems with how conversions kits were handled, so I get it. It did sound to me like the argument was flatly against CKs being produced at all, but that's likely because I lacked earlier context.

I would be more sympathetic to that argument except a giant chunk of the problems in 2e have come from non-conversion kit factions. Not that there weren't some glaring oops in the kits but my more recent memory is filled with CIS swarms, ensnare, regen jedi, and other different CIS swarm. Which indicates that there's just a baseline level of oops happening period

Would it be fair to say conversion kits were bad for gameplay balance, but to not do conversion kit would have been bad for the game?

I know that many people would not have stayed playing the game if conversion kits hadn't existed. But I also see that Rebels definitely seem like the first designed faction. And at the risk of annoying some folks, I'll reiterate that many of the scummy stuff that Scum does gets done better by CIS as if Scum had been the testing ground for that faction.

6 minutes ago, Makaze said:

I would be more sympathetic to that argument except a giant chunk of the problems in 2e have come from non-conversion kit factions. Not that there weren't some glaring oops in the kits but my more recent memory is filled with CIS swarms, ensnare, regen jedi, and other different CIS swarm. Which indicates that there's just a baseline level of oops happening period

On the brightside, when we pirates were screaming loud enough behind the company's building in an alley and when it reached the height where a molotov cocktail hit a kitchen-grease dumpster that ignited an inferno whilst clowns were playing heavy metal clown-core while a disgraced neuroscientist tried to play operation on an exposed chimp skull with chopsticks: that was when the company had to send someone out to make us stfu. With that having been dealt with, they can't play the "there are no pirate clown brain surgery grease fires going on" card. Company reputation and community image was on the line.

The scarier question is, if/when 3.0 comes if it doesn't have conversion kits, but allows you to still use old models, do you stay with the game? Or what if they completely revamp the game from the ground up? What do we do then?

Just now, Cloaker said:

The scarier question is, if/when 3.0 comes if it doesn't have conversion kits, but allows you to still use old models, do you stay with the game? Or what if they completely revamp the game from the ground up? What do we do then?

If 3.0 comes out any sooner than 5 years from now, I'm out. 2.0 was the competitive retweak of a beer and pretzels game that did surprisingly well. If 3.0 drops, I'll look for another miniatures game that scratches the same itch but doesn't revamp so often. Which probably means a discontinued miniatures game, but hey, you can shoot Craig or shoot with him in the fan-made expansions for Halo: Ground Command.

I just don't know if 3.0 will further tweak the game any more meaningfully than 2.0 will. At its chassis, X-Wing is a casual game, even if I am one of those taking it far too seriously. It's based on the Wings of War/Glory format!

1 minute ago, Cloaker said:

The scarier question is, if/when 3.0 comes if it doesn't have conversion kits, but allows you to still use old models, do you stay with the game? Or what if they completely revamp the game from the ground up? What do we do then?

I have something like 200 models. It's fair to say that if I ever have to rebuy those models to play the game, I'll (with sadness) give up the game.

Note a couple of things: (1) That happening might not have a single thing to do with FFG. I could lose my models in a fire, and insurance not pay replacement cost, for instance. (2) I can see my personal viewpoint reaching an untenable point for FFG if too many people hold it: if they reach the point where they can't sell models, it's tough for me to see how X-Wing survives. And people currently have so. Many. Models.

I have no idea how to resolve that tension, and I admit the thought of it makes me uneasy. I love X-Wing. (I also hate X-Wing. I don't even feel like that's in the least contradictory.)

6 minutes ago, Jeff Wilder said:

I have something like 200 models. It's fair to say that if I ever have to rebuy those models to play the game, I'll (with sadness) give up the game.

Note a couple of things: (1) That happening might not have a single thing to do with FFG. I could lose my models in a fire, and insurance not pay replacement cost, for instance. (2) I can see my personal viewpoint reaching an untenable point for FFG if too many people hold it: if they reach the point where they can't sell models, it's tough for me to see how X-Wing survives. And people currently have so. Many. Models.

I have no idea how to resolve that tension, and I admit the thought of it makes me uneasy. I love X-Wing. (I also hate X-Wing. I don't even feel like that's in the least contradictory.)

As a printed game without models, they could make bank on printed materials. More profit, even.

14 minutes ago, 5050Saint said:

I'll reiterate that many of the scummy stuff that Scum does gets done better CIS as if Scum had been the test for that faction.

#scum4life

#illicitpointsdown

#scumistheheartandsoulofxwing

#droidscantdrinkcaff

2 minutes ago, Cloaker said:

As a printed game without models, they could make bank on printed materials. More profit, even.

I'll have to take your word for that (because I have no experience whatsoever with which to form my own opinion), and I genuinely hope it's true!

3 minutes ago, Cloaker said:

As a printed game without models, they could make bank on printed materials. More profit, even.

All true. But X-Wing has always been designed as a miniatures game.

Ffg has done other card games.

X-Wing is a minis game.... arguably the finest Star Wars fans have ever gotten, both in gameplay and in model quality.