Oh! @Sunitsa @GreenDragoon

I forgot - I have all the raw data

2017 (mindlink)

2016 (palp aces and "triple jumps")

So you can go and define mindlink any way you wish. If you think triple jumps was really it's own archetype - have at. (Just go and make a copy)
This, of course, would mean mindlink would be a smaller % of that meta, for instance.

Also, @GreenDragoon - I was supposed to get back to you about something, and completely forgot. What was it?

16 minutes ago, Hoarder of Garlic Bread said:

I'm on mobile, so I can't insert image, but Randy the Intern "OK, Boomer":

(Posted on mobile, just have to copy image URL and tap “insert other media”).

1 minute ago, Chumbalaya said:

I think on some level it's the feeling of being behind early that gets people upset. Swarms do that, but Jumpmasters did too. Remember palp aces had like twice the representation but Jumpmasters are what got people mad. People like to feel that they're in the game, even if your brain knows that you can't actually hurt palp autothrusters Soontir. Jumpmasters just annihilated that illusion by going up so early.

Swarms are very similar in that aspect. When you're playing your hypothetical wholesome Rebel NPC 4 ship Dutch list you will lose to Swarms and Aces at a roughly similar rate. However, because the aces pick at you and toy with you all game, you feel like you have a shot and the game is close. The swarm, however, just trades efficiently and you visually see your squad get reduced in size while the swarm loses some but not all and that feels bad.

Most of what you describe is more specific to alpha strikes than swarms, necessarily, right? I mean, swarms often have a great alpha strike, but if they didn't, would they be hated as much? The alpha strike (especially a long range one) definitely does put a player behind in the game, and definitely does require work to recover. The swarm makes it hard to recover from that hole because they're great up close as well and hard to get points from, but the alpha is what digs the hole.

1 hour ago, Biophysical said:

I 100% agree, but I'm not trying to figure out what makes people the most mad, I'm trying to figure out what makes people the least mad.

When a well performance requires skill and can be countered with in game tactics (and not needs specific squadbuilding).

I don't see that with Spamtex.

16 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

So... yes, I am the boomer.

I legitimately am a boomer (who plays zero video games), and I often find myself at a loss in these threads; still interesting reading and, if the inscrutable jargon bothers me enough, there's always Teh Google. 😎🍺

Just now, Spinland said:

I legitimately am a boomer (who plays zero video games), and I often find myself at a loss in these threads; still interesting reading and, if the inscrutable jargon bothers me enough, there's always Teh Google. 😎🍺

same team

1 minute ago, S4ul0 said:

When a well performance requires skill and can be countered with in game tactics (and not needs specific squadbuilding).

I don't see that with Spamtex.

I wasn't talking about Spamtex.

4 minutes ago, FlyingAnchors said:

(Posted on mobile, just have to copy image URL and tap “insert other media”).

The irony of calling someone a boomer then needing to be told how to open pdf

8 minutes ago, jagsba said:

The irony of calling someone a boomer then needing to be told how to open pdf

3 minutes ago, FlyingAnchors said:

Am also boomer

4 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

I wasn't talking about Spamtex.

It's an example. I could see the skill with swarms, Aces or mixed squads. But when one ship/pilot overperform because bad design/cost is not so easy.

I think a lot of generic pilots are undercosted at this moment, and some Aces have too many tools. We have a big breach between the main archetypes and the game falls to one side or the other with the updates.

I don't think a good solution exists. When a ship needs to be spammed (or needs sinergy) to be effective, is rare to see it lonely. On the other hand, the medium Initiative Aces don't see play because cannot guarantee a fair matchup against all the field. There is not enough difference between they and the best generic/aces out there.

28 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

Does this help?

I feely strangely calm and serene, as if everything is going to be ok.

Thanks Craig.

GenXer that gets a little riled when people forget there's a whole generation between Boomers and Millenials but mostly enjoys being ignored when sticks and stones start being thrown between the two groups.

As a thought experiment. What does a 150 point game look like in 2nd edition? (Nantexes excluded) Played a few 120 point games and that seems heavily tilted towards Aces. Double Ace beats 60% of a swarm. Does 150 points make things any more interesting?

I think the fundamental problem is that moving last is too cheap and always has been. And it needs to be if new players are ever going to take Luke or Vader and not just get annihilated by another new player using an efficiency swarm. It's a floor/ceiling problem that will not get fixed by FFG.

12 minutes ago, Brunas said:

I feely strangely calm and serene, as if everything is going to be ok.

Thanks Craig.

Its good to get into a regular habit of clicking "ok" to the below menu option every time you read something that makes you 🤔 or 😡

1 Agility. Takes damage. Rolls with the crits. Expects to be destroyed. Mediocre graphics. Mostly ok with it. Has fun anyway.

Thanks Craig.

3 minutes ago, gamblertuba said:

GenXer that gets a little riled when people forget there's a whole generation between Boomers and Millenials but mostly enjoys being ignored when sticks and stones start being thrown between the two groups.

That's your thing.

7 minutes ago, gamblertuba said:

I think the fundamental problem is that moving last is too cheap and always has been. And it needs to be if new players are ever going to take Luke or Vader and not just get annihilated by another new player using an efficiency swarm. It's a floor/ceiling problem that will not get fixed by FFG.

I still remember the shock when I suggest random die rolls for first player.

People earned their bid.

Clearly.

6 minutes ago, gamblertuba said:

I think the fundamental problem is that moving last is too cheap and always has been. And it needs to be if new players are ever going to take Luke or Vader and not just get annihilated by another new player using an efficiency swarm

If at least a good kill box was enough to win... But, as I said, the Aces have many tools (Force, Free Actions, Mods, ...)

29 minutes ago, S4ul0 said:

When a well performance requires skill and can be countered with in game tactics (and not needs specific squadbuilding).

This.

I don't hate swarms.

I am fine if you have a squad you can fly whilst mostly scrolling your phone. I am not fine if I lose to that squad whilst you're mostly scrolling your phone.

That's the full list of squad archetypes I don't like. It has nothing to do with numbers.

I imagine this is generally how people feel about unliked things.

Possibly, when a swarm becomes actually very good, it lends itself to being played this way. I joust, I clusterfudge, I win.

Which may explain why strong swarms attract more ire, since everyone knows aces require big brains.

17 minutes ago, Cuz05 said:

aces require big brains.

Thats sarcasm right?

I tried to summarize my thoughts on why swarms are fun here: https://fort-hyperspace.blogspot.com/2020/06/ramble-3.html

Admittedly I described it a bit to much from the perspective of an Ace because I still have the limited world view of a primarily "ace" player, even if I mostly play 5-6 ship Ace + Swarm its just not the same.

We really need more good Swarm players (there are literally dozens of them) sharing their thoughts on how to play Swarms well, why they are fun, where the nuance comes from, and what makes them difficult to play with and against. There are legions of Ace players recording videos and bat reps of their tactics and decision trees. Very little in depth knowledge around higher ship count lists is out there. Its near universally discussed from the perspective of how the Ace can beat the Swarm. Not the other way around or in terms of other swarm matchups against not ace things.

It remains a comically under discussed topic even 2 versions into X-Wing and 2 years into 2.0. Which I think leads to a lot of the miscommunication around swarms and protagonist vs antagonist perceptions of them.

Its like the sum total of X-Wing player knowledge of Swarm tactics ended with 1.0 Howl Tie Swarm (which I would argue is not a true 2.0 swarm which tend to have less rigid range synergy requirements and do not operate as megatron single ship blocks ). That was it. Thats all the documentation that exists in the archives.

2 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

Thats sarcasm right?

I generally play swarms or beef, because I suck at the pure ace lists. Also, swarms are fun because the game ends with a lot of points scored and things blown up.

But yeah, the game plan for swarms is pretty simple. Fly at the joustable part of the opposing list, get up on points, make them play your game and don't fall below critical mass. If you're ever 100% sure about someone's move, punish it with a block and kill box.

But, I'm pretty sure I can make that facile summary of ace play too. There's a lot of decision making in swarm play too.

I've done a few commentaries on my play, and I've been on stream a couple times with swarms. I 100% agree we need more swarmy players out there: at the Texas SOS, I asked people how many times they've played against swarms, and a lot of them were like "no one in my area plays a swarm, so I never get to practice it."

Wonder what the game (and the various player concerns with certain meta list archetypes as they emerge) would be like if random draw Environment cards were used. Many of the Environment scenarios are designed to give first player a bit more strategic agency, like an extra obstacle placement, that they can use to compensate for unfavorable player order or to counter certain lists and their tactics. Have been playing Environment a lot more at home with friends during the pandemic, it definitely changes the way the game is played. Continuous Bombardment, Minefield, etc. give the game a bit more of a thematic feel--and there's some smart in game tactics that can be used around them. If the drivers of the X-Wing community were taking this time in the game's lull inbetween in person play to vet online Environmental tournaments and event competitions, there could be a great deal of learning and understanding taking place right now about how to diversify the game. 200/6 is 8 years old--we can chart new frontiers, you know? Aces High has opened up a lot of doors on how to enjoy and win the game in different ways but we don't have to stop there.

And also, Spamtex would absolutely HATE some of those Environment cards... depending on the draw and their opponent's skill in negotiating the scenario, Spamtex sure as Hoth wouldn't represent the lion's share of tournament lists. So yeah, it would be great to see the community leaders like GSP and Krayts and Fly Betters rally behind a large scale Environment tournament. Cause without the influencers helping drive new facets of gameplay, we're going to stay on the 200/6 merry go around until this edition either stalls or is replaced.

53 minutes ago, gamblertuba said:

I think the fundamental problem is that moving last is too cheap and always has been. And it needs to be if new players are ever going to take Luke or Vader and not just get annihilated by another new player using an efficiency swarm. It's a floor/ceiling problem that will not get fixed by FFG.

I sometimes wonder if we'll see a edition "2.5" where they start to incorporate the huge ship dichotomy between movement initiative and engagement initiative. You could condense engagement initiative even further - 0 for huge ships, 1 for typical generics (mostly I1 and I2), 2 for mid-tier elites and stronger ability uniques (mostly I3 and I4), and 3 for the elite generics or 'aces' (some I4 up to I6).

You could also have huge differentiation between movement and initiative, where your bruiser aces get to move last (but also shoot last). Or, you could do the opposite where your generics move first but also shoot early. Soontir would be wayyyy different if he got to move with perfect board knowledge but also engaged at the same time as Sabers.

Just some thoughts, but it seems fun and precedented.

16 minutes ago, pheaver said:

I've done a few commentaries on my play, and I've been on stream a couple times with swarms. I 100% agree we need more swarmy players out there: at the Texas SOS, I asked people how many times they've played against swarms, and a lot of them were like "no one in my area plays a swarm, so I never get to practice it."

I judged at that event and got to meet you and so many other outstanding players that weekend... that was such a great time for me this year. It seems so long ago. But it is at least something I can pull from 2020 as a highlight (which isn't much sadly.)

Our locals were really starting to embrace swarm play before our FLGSs started shutting down. To walk the gamut of some 16 squads on a Monday night and see most of those players fielding 5/6/7 ship lists was not uncommon.

I miss my local players and our casual nights and weekend tourneys very much. So many interesting and talented individuals. This game has given me some really fun memories and interactions.

44 minutes ago, pheaver said:

I've done a few commentaries on my play, and I've been on stream a couple times with swarms. I 100% agree we need more swarmy players out there: at the Texas SOS, I asked people how many times they've played against swarms, and a lot of them were like "no one in my area plays a swarm, so I never get to practice it."

We need to start a go found me for potential swarm players. I was really interested in vultures swarms around and before when wave six hits, but man it took forever to get 6 plus vultures into my possession and thats before i have to unbox them and get all the stuff together.

4 minutes ago, catachanninja said:

We need to start a go found me for potential swarm players.

Cant tell if me not understanding this means I am the boomer or you are the boomer or we both are?