49 minutes ago, AEIllingworth said:

Would it be the best list in the game right now if they were priced at 33? Probably? Still no where near unbeatable.

Are there any upgrades you can put on 5 x wings that make them as good as 6 x wings with only foils? That might be your answer then.

edit: and the brute, would the new double cannon and one of the configs be good enough at 40? They are decently chonky bois. Gets them in medium base turreted reinforcing b-wing territory.

Would 6 xwings be the best list in the game?

2 hours ago, AEIllingworth said:

Would it be the best list in the game right now if they were priced at 33? Probably?

Have you tried 6 strikers?

1 hour ago, jagsba said:

Would 6 xwings be the best list in the game?

No. At least I don’t think so. It would have a presence in the meta, as 6, 3 die atks is nothing to shrug at, but I don’t think it would be a walk in the park to the final table at every event. Even then, in this hypothetical meta where you can take 6, 5 with upgrades is probably a better choice.

Is there a compelling reason to take an Eta2 without a LAAT? Even pretending that 7th fleet/Suppressive gunners didn't exist, that force regen crew or the Patience + Hound combos didn't exist, or that the lock was purple, why skip on the LAAT and Concentrated Fire?

ok so what I'm hearing is that in order to rub shoulders with the best lists in extended, generic xwings need to be at the 6-of breakpoint? maybe even lower?

I'm not sure what we're taking with 5X that makes it better than 6X would be, including other pilots. thicc han plus 3X doesn't seem like clearly the best list in the game? probably pretty good though?

would it take 30 point xwings to be clearly the best?

I *think* the discussion on X-Wing pricing is a clear demonstration of why balancing by only dropping points on underperforming ships doesn't really work. I feel like FFG wanted to stop raising point costs this year now that the game is "maturing" and focus on bringing bad stuff down in points until it's good. I'm afraid that is not going to work in most cases.

Drop points on Dash until he's playable? EZ. Drop points on Kihraxzfjdjs until they are good... Hmmm.... You can only go so low in prices and if the high initiative stuff with force, repo, and shenanigans are getting 220+ points worth of value in their list, you aren't fixing it by making the Kihraxzfjdjs 37 points. Those point drops on the low end ships are either largely inconsequential or create monsters like Spamtex. I'd be willing to try 5 B-Wings. Not sure it would be good enough. Pretty sure lots of people would hate it.

TL:DR- FFG needs to nerf more of the high performers. Just buffing the weak ships isn't enough to improve balance.

*I'm super happy that my autocomplete suggested Kihraxzfjdjs for me.

31 minutes ago, svelok said:

ok so what I'm hearing is that in order to rub shoulders with the best lists in extended, generic xwings need to be at the 6-of breakpoint? maybe even lower?

I'm not sure what we're taking with 5X that makes it better than 6X would be, including other pilots. thicc han plus 3X doesn't seem like clearly the best list in the game? probably pretty good though?

would it take 30 point xwings to be clearly the best?

I did think you were smartly trolling, but you've gone far enough into it now that I've become doubtful.

Further buffing of low Init generics is only going to improve things for people who exclusively run low Init generics.

I do get that it's the only wholesome way to play X Wing and should therefore be the only viable thing, but eh.

#nerfsnotbuffs

12 minutes ago, gamblertuba said:

TL:DR- FFG needs to nerf more of the high performers. Just buffing the weak ships isn't enough to improve balance.

22 minutes ago, gamblertuba said:

aren't fixing it by making the Kihraxzfjdjs 37 points. Those point drops on the low end ships are either largely inconsequential

16 minutes ago, Cuz05 said:

Further buffing of low Init generics is only going to improve things for people who exclusively run low Init generics.

wait, i super disagree with this

cheaper /fo and /bas made first order list building way more interesting and diverse, and so did cheap fangs and scyks for scum, and so did cheap barons and ties and etc... and all of those are things that made people say "these are broken good" until two months went by and in fact they were at worst just "viable choices" and still mostly worse than their factions aces?

meanwhile, generic t65s are... checks notes... played by approximately one person in extended?

even if you do nerf all the good stuff instead - which im super same team on - that still leaves internal balance wonky, t65s are still bad compared to braylen or luke even after you nerf vader and zizi, and they'd still be bad compared to tiebas or sycks if you nerfed luke too. nerf all the i5/6 force aces by like 4 points each - again, super same team - and i3 RZ1s are still worse than the baron they're four points more than, and the i1s still aren't four points better than an /fo, neither of which are even particularly that relevant outside of hyperspace?

11 minutes ago, svelok said:

wait, i super disagree with this

cheaper /fo and /bas made first order list building way more interesting and diverse, and so did cheap fangs and scyks for scum, and so did cheap barons and ties and etc... and all of those are things that made people say "these are broken good" until two months went by and in fact they were at worst just "viable choices" and still mostly worse than their factions aces?

meanwhile, generic t65s are... checks notes... played by approximately one person in extended?

even if you do nerf all the good stuff instead - which im super same team on - that still leaves internal balance wonky, t65s are still bad compared to braylen or luke even after you nerf vader and zizi, and they'd still be bad compared to tiebas or sycks if you nerfed luke too. nerf all the i5/6 force aces by like 4 points each - again, super same team - and i3 RZ1s are still worse than the baron they're four points more than, and the i1s still aren't four points better than an /fo, neither of which are even particularly that relevant outside of hyperspace?

Fair. I do think some of the generics you mention came down a little tiny weeny bit too far. I was particularly pleased and excited by the drops on Fangs, Scyks and Barons but that's a selfish stand point, it hasn't helped other things I like in comparison.

I'm honestly ignorant on FO, but the basic TIE seems a fantastic deal.

Perhaps they don't seem too cheap in comparison to other things that are definitely too cheap....

Personally, I would still happily fly those 3 generics I just mentioned if they did go up by 1 or 2 points, because I think they're that good.

I stand by nerfs not buffs. The generics that are still somewhat by the wayside can still be helped this way. And so can a bunch of other things that aren't aces or base generics.

8 hours ago, jagsba said:

Would 6 xwings be the best list in the game?

It'd have weaknesses, to be sure.

6 hours ago, FlyingAnchors said:

No. At least I don’t think so. It would have a presence in the meta, as 6, 3 die atks is nothing to shrug at, but I don’t think it would be a walk in the park to the final table at every event.

I mean, I think this is probably true, but I think it might also still be a problem.

I think there's enough limitations to an X-Wing (they have to trade firepower for mobility, they're low Init) that they wouldn't run over everything. But they'll also completely run over a lot of stuff. 6X is going to steamroll a lot of lists, even if it doesn't steamroll a lot of events. I'm sure folks could say that those are bad lists that 6X would totally steamroll, but losing because there's just such an overwhelming weight of efficiency against you is going to create a lot of "there was nothing I can do" feelings. I think it's important to balance around not just the top 8 tables at large tournaments, but the smaller level. That's why I'm glad we don't have Triple Defenders, even if that'd be a mediocre list at large tournaments.

1 hour ago, svelok said:

ok so what I'm hearing is that in order to rub shoulders with the best lists in extended, generic xwings need to be at the 6-of breakpoint? maybe even lower?

I'm not sure what we're taking with 5X that makes it better than 6X would be, including other pilots. thicc han plus 3X doesn't seem like clearly the best list in the game? probably pretty good though?

would it take 30 point xwings to be clearly the best?

Somewhere between "only one player is playing it in extended" and "best list in X-Wing" is "this is utter h#!! for casuals to play against." I think that's worth avoiding.

6 hours ago, FlyingAnchors said:

Even then, in this hypothetical meta where you can take 6, 5 with upgrades is probably a better choice.

For Rebels? I don't see it. I don't think there's an upgrade a Rebel X-Wing can take that would make 5 better than 6. Upping to named pilots? Maybe. But there's no, say, 1e Flight Assist Astromech, and I bet even 5 + Afterburners wouldn't be better than 6.

I could see maybe 5 Optics T-70s being better than 6 without, maybe, but that's a different faction.

23 minutes ago, svelok said:

even if you do nerf all the good stuff instead - which im super same team on - that still leaves internal balance wonky, t65s are still bad compared to braylen or luke even after you nerf vader and zizi, and they'd still be bad compared to tiebas or sycks if you nerfed luke too. nerf all the i5/6 force aces by like 4 points each - again, super same team - and i3 RZ1s are still worse than the baron they're four points more than, and the i1s still aren't four points better than an /fo, neither of which are even particularly that relevant outside of hyperspace?

As I think about the structure which pretty much always makes Braylen and Luke better than generics, I'm really starting to think "move last, shoot first" plus "can't shoot if you're killed" plus "all the good pilots are high initiative" is a really bad system. A 3rd edition designed around "move first, shoot first" (maybe with some semi-Fel's Wrath, probably with penalties) just really appeals to me. Han and Kylo get moved to lower Init and will shoot first, but can get arc dodged. Soontir and Fenn Rau get to move last, but then have to wait through any potential incoming fire before they can attack. Having the pilots spread out across the spectrum (good abilities at both high and low, generics somewhat distributed) seems like it might make for interesting choices, and it might mean fewer ships are useless.

Bus for No More Initiative Kills is Now Boarding

for sure - I don't want to see defenders of any kind anywhere near hyperspace, they just close out the number of things invited to the table; like the named V1s already kind of do. same energy. i don't need 6t65s or whatever, i just know that rebel generics give me the same "boring, not interested" listbuilding energy that eg scum generics did, until they got a lot cheaper and we just realized they were always way too expensive

if we think 33pt t65s wouldn't even be that good it says a lot about... something, probably, but it's mostly tangential to any crusade i may or may not be on

1 hour ago, gamblertuba said:

TL:DR- FFG needs to nerf more of the high performers. Just buffing the weak ships isn't enough to improve balance.

Aren't they doing exactly this already? Imp aces, republic aces, vultures, and boba were all toned down this most recent cycle IIRC

20 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

6X is going to steamroll a lot of lists, even if it doesn't steamroll a lot of events.

Yup. Invoking Nantex again, but even if Nantex weren't winning events, they are invalidating a lot of lists. 6X would do that, too. 6 Strikers is an okay list, but give them all 2 shield upgrades and they'd be dangerous. Being able to take 6X also would open up taking 5X + something, or 4X + 2 somethings. I think that is something that Triple Defender apologists don't often acknowledge. Maybe 3 i1 Defenders is wholesome, but 2 i1 Defenders + Vader probably isn't.

15 minutes ago, svelok said:

Bus for No More Initiative Kills is Now Boarding

Can it be a choochoo instead?

@svelok I'm not suggesting that FFG shouldn't bring down points on underperforming ships. They should. But they should also be more willing to raise the price on the high performers.

Rebel and Scum got points dropped all over the place. Not sure how much it actually helped. Of course Spamtex has the whole meta skewed at this point. Bistan/Dash seems like it might be a thing. Yay?

The number of high performing ships/pilots/upgrades/lists will always be small. Always. You can only, ever have a few "best" options. Nerfing those* will be much more efficient than buffing everything else.

*Assuming that the "best" options are actually getting a better deal for their point cost than other options. Getting folks to agree on that is going to be difficult to impossible.

1 minute ago, 5050Saint said:

I think that is something that Triple Defender apologists don't often acknowledge. Maybe 3 i1 Defenders is wholesome, but 2 i1 Defenders + Vader probably isn't.

I've played a lot of Delta Defenders in 2e, probably one of my most played ships along the Fang.*

3 Deltas (or even 2 + Palp OGP) is only going to be wholesome in certain contexts. It isn't at the FLGS, even if the large tournament scene doesn't mind.

* Gee, 3 red 3 green ships with strong mods...

25 minutes ago, Brunas said:

Aren't they doing exactly this already? Imp aces, republic aces, vultures, and boba were all toned down this most recent cycle IIRC

Well sort of. Yes, those pieces got hit. Slightly. In many cases probably enough. But Resistance got a single point increase on Zizi and that's it. Seems odd. I guess my issue is somewhat philosophical. It's way easier to break the game by dropping points. Raising points too high can eliminate one ship/pilot/archetype whatever for six months maybe. If that list was your jam, that sucks. Dropping points too far can ruin the whole meta.

It's hard to make any kind of legitimate evaluation of the meta right now with so few events and Spamtex apparently skewing things pretty hard. Will get a bit better picture after Concord and Crait. In a world without Nantexans, I'm not sure I'm OK with Dash Bistan but that is leftover 1st edition hatred probably.

13 hours ago, jagsba said:

heck you doing with your 20 extra points to make it best in game?

god i dont even know, cut one to get some words and a z95 in there? or like, a good leia carrier?

I'm trying to think of how much im willing to pay for an i5 generic x wing (with crackshot of course) and the number is like 47 with crack

6 minutes ago, catachanninja said:

god i dont even know, cut one to get some words and a z95 in there? or like, a good leia carrier?

I'm trying to think of how much im willing to pay for an i5 generic x wing (with crackshot of course) and the number is like 47 with crack

okay but that implies thanes ability is worth anything which it absoltely is not, but im also generally unwilling to play thane, so maybe i can go down further?

8 minutes ago, catachanninja said:

okay but that implies thanes ability is worth anything which it absoltely is not, but im also generally unwilling to play thane, so maybe i can go down further?

Someone on twitter told me thane is bad

1 hour ago, Brunas said:

Aren't they doing exactly this already? Imp aces, republic aces, vultures, and boba were all toned down this most recent cycle IIRC

Imp aces have to make sacrifices now

20 minutes ago, jagsba said:

Someone on twitter told me thane is bad

they were probably right, even if he is uniquely positioned to do okay vs a nantex

Backing up a little now that i've eaten, im pretty sure 6x would be a monster, and y'all underestimate how much hp that is to chew through behind two dice and the ridiculous amount of arc coverage it provides. That's before you start to sprinkle them in to other existing lists at that discount. I think i'd even take it vs 6 nantex as that list exists now even with how efficent the nantex can be against an x.

3 hours ago, catachanninja said:

okay but that implies thanes ability is worth anything which it absoltely is not, but im also generally unwilling to play thane, so maybe i can go down further?

But then you uncover a Direct Hit and all is forgiven?