4 minutes ago, jagsba said:

Blocking isn't just about denying shots. Getting a block still limits the area the nantex can occupy and even better forces them to choose between staying there or losing an agility to move.

You'll have to spread your arcs out a bit more to be sure. But there's some definite room to punish them after a block

More fun since Nantex like to fly close, one bumping and rolling off can set up chain bumps.

3 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

vultures sure do hate 3 agility ships.

Nantexes sure do hate auto crits (discords).

And the good news is, that game will be over in like 6 turns!

Judge! Swarm games always go to time.

2 minutes ago, jagsba said:

Blocking isn't just about denying shots. Getting a block still limits the area the nantex can occupy and even better forces them to choose between staying there or losing an agility to move.

You'll have to spread your arcs out a bit more to be sure. But there's some definite room to punish them after a block

C'mon.

Being blocked and moving and arc dodging and getting shots *IS SERIOUSLY NEXT LEVEL* over passive mods.

Sure, do what you can do deal with it, but don't pretend like this isn't a whole extra step of capacity from the Nantex, and challenge to the opponent.

4 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

C'mon.

Being blocked and moving and arc dodging and getting shots *IS SERIOUSLY NEXT LEVEL* over passive mods.

Sure, do what you can do deal with it, but don't pretend like this isn't a whole extra step of capacity from the Nantex, and challenge to the opponent.

Do you want to discuss tactics or do you want to be mad?

1 minute ago, theBitterFig said:

C'mon.

Being blocked and moving and arc dodging and getting shots *IS SERIOUSLY NEXT LEVEL* over passive mods.

Sure, do what you can do deal with it, but don't pretend like this isn't a whole extra step of capacity from the Nantex, and challenge to the opponent.

It doesn't matter as much in the opening engagement of Nantex vs Swarm, since presumably other ships will punish you if you roll off. But yes, once you get down to half vs half, the lower ship count means the Nantex are able to arc dodge you and still get shots, and it definitely contributes to their wins. It, and the i4 init kill, are the two main factors that the typical swarm is, I think, not favored to win the matchup.

1 minute ago, jagsba said:

Do you want to discuss tactics or do you want to be mad?

There's a difference in how effective a discussion of tactics will be between "do it, and if you don't you're just whinging" and "do what you can, it may be harder."

10 minutes ago, Kaptin Krunch said:

The whole time i watched that Oli vs. 6tex game i was screaming "Why aren't you just smashing wedge! he's wedge! He can't run way from you!"

Exactly this. Kill the least maneuverable ship, then force the rest of the list to come to you. Like in the game that Redline got caught, he didn't chase Whisper or the Inquisitor down. He went after the ship with the least forgiving movement. Once Red was dead, the two aces had to seek redemption. He kept chasing Dash, when he should have killed Wedge and force Dash to come in.

6 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

There's a difference in how effective a discussion of tactics will be between "do it, and if you don't you're just whinging" and "do what you can, it may be harder."

I agree. Show me where I said the former not the latter please and I'll correct my wording.

22 minutes ago, jagsba said:

Blocking isn't just about denying shots. Getting a block still limits the area the nantex can occupy and even better forces them to choose between staying there or losing an agility to move.

You'll have to spread your arcs out a bit more to be sure. But there's some definite room to punish them after a block

21 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

C'mon.

Being blocked and moving and arc dodging and getting shots *IS SERIOUSLY NEXT LEVEL* over passive mods.

Sure, do what you can do deal with it, but don't pretend like this isn't a whole extra step of capacity from the Nantex, and challenge to the opponent.

This might be unintentionally start this thread's old favorite argument, but why the anger over nantexes here, but not say, Zari, who does the same thing (technically slightly better) as Nantexes?

Just now, Brunas said:

This might be unintentionally start this thread's old favorite argument, but why the anger over nantexes here, but not say, Zari, who does the same thing (technically slightly better) as Nantexes?

Because you can't take 6 Zaris with crack and predator.

1 minute ago, Npmartian said:

Because you can't take 6 Zaris with crack and predator.

It has to be more complicated than that, as while you can't take 6, you can definitely take one zari with crack and predator. I've never once even seen a complaint about Zari anywhere on the internet or in person.

actually I hate this argument a lot.

You could only take one handbreak han, therefore it was OK? I'm trying to ask why it feels different to play against Zari than a Nantex, not argue with anyone why it's OK or not OK

Wow all that tactical advice went away immediately.

Anyone else have more videos? Photos? Diagrams?

Right now it looks like 6tex is a highly maneuverable version of a conventional beef list, that gets said maneuverability at the expense of their firepower being highly inconsistent.

I'd like more information, if possible. I'd like to know what to put some time into when I get back into IRL x-wing.

Also, has anyone played them in Hyperspace? The inability to frontload seems somewhat crippling there.

1 minute ago, Brunas said:

actually I hate this argument a lot.

You could only take one handbreak han, therefore it was OK? I'm trying to ask why it feels different to play against Zari than a Nantex, not argue with anyone why it's OK or not OK

Because Zari can only go to 2 arcs and a Nantex can go to 3.

Just now, Brunas said:

actually I hate this argument a lot.

You could only take one handbreak han, therefore it was OK? I'm trying to ask why it feels different to play against Zari than a Nantex, not argue with anyone why it's OK or not OK

Handbrake Han did nothing wrong.

3 minutes ago, Brunas said:

You could only take one handbreak han, therefore it was OK

Bad take bro

1 minute ago, Brunas said:

It has to be more complicated than that, as while you can't take 6, you can definitely take one zari with crack and predator. I've never once even seen a complaint about Zari anywhere on the internet or in person.

I'm not certain it is more complicated than that. Even just being to able take 6 i4 non-talented RZ-2 might trigger me.

1 minute ago, Kaptin Krunch said:

I'd like more information, if possible. I'd like to know what to put some time into when I get back into IRL x-wing.

Do you think IRL X-Wing will start for you before the January points update? Do you think the Nantex list will survive the January points update?

The answer to both these questions will determine what direction you should go in!

Just now, 5050Saint said:

I'm not certain it is more complicated than that. Even just being to able take 6 i4 non-talented RZ-2 might trigger me.

Right, but then the point is that the repositioning after being blocked is irrelevant - we just don't want to play against 6 rz2s.

And that's OK! You're allowed to not want to play against that! I'm just skeptical that the chassis ability not requiring fully executing a maneuver is the part that is the most unfun, and want to confirm that.

4 minutes ago, Brunas said:

It has to be more complicated than that, as while you can't take 6, you can definitely take one zari with crack and predator. I've never once even seen a complaint about Zari anywhere on the internet or in person.

3 minutes ago, Brunas said:

actually I hate this argument a lot.

You could only take one handbreak han, therefore it was OK? I'm trying to ask why it feels different to play against Zari than a Nantex, not argue with anyone why it's OK or not OK

Alright, I'll take a shot at actual advice. Part of it might have to do with the I3/I4 difference-that's the breakpoint where most generics stop and unique ace-ier ships start. Zari also won't rock your world as hard as a Nantex does if she's ignored- you can kinda just let an I3 a-wing do its thing and then beat it in the lategame, whereas an I4 nantex is more effective then at least partially due to being able to reactively put its arcs in the sides and having a 3-die primary. Finally, can't Nantices do their tractor thing off of rocks? That might help them too.

4 minutes ago, Npmartian said:

Alright, I'll take a shot at actual advice. Part of it might have to do with the I3/I4 difference-that's the breakpoint where most generics stop and unique ace-ier ships start. Zari also won't rock your world as hard as a Nantex does if she's ignored- you can kinda just let an I3 a-wing do its thing and then beat it in the lategame, whereas an I4 nantex is more effective then at least partially due to being able to reactively put its arcs in the sides and having a 3-die primary. Finally, can't Nantices do their tractor thing off of rocks? That might help them too.

So if all the nantex were i3 instead of i4, with the same talents, would you be fine with it?

5 minutes ago, Npmartian said:

Alright, I'll take a shot at actual advice. Part of it might have to do with the I3/I4 difference-that's the breakpoint where most generics stop and unique ace-ier ships start. Zari also won't rock your world as hard as a Nantex does if she's ignored- you can kinda just let an I3 a-wing do its thing and then beat it in the lategame, whereas an I4 nantex is more effective then at least partially due to being able to reactively put its arcs in the sides and having a 3-die primary. Finally, can't Nantices do their tractor thing off of rocks? That might help them too.

Cool, thanks. So again I want to make it clear that I'm not trying to argue with how you feel - I'm trying to make these things make sense to me. If you don't have fun against nantexes because you're playing i3 stuff and it's frustrating - got it.

Power level makes sense - to skip a whole lot of steps, losing usually isn't fun, and losing by a whole lot usually is much less fun.

I doubt nantexes or awings are blocked on rocks enough for it too matter - the fact that you're not sure if they can do it (which again, is fine), leads me to believe it's not common?

1 minute ago, pheaver said:

Do you think IRL X-Wing will start for you before the January points update? Do you think the Nantex list will survive the January points update?

The answer to both these questions will determine what direction you should go in!

I have no idea. I'm also wondering why everyone is apparently running 6x crack and ignoring the power that would be mutiple copies of Predator, and intimidation Gorgol who should be able to block quite a few people. That alone would allow them to play to their strengths much harder, alpha striking more of the opposite list faster.

I'm also staring at the HMP and wondering how many will fit for January. 4+ support? 5+ support? Some silly **** where I end up running a 7 ship list with 4-5 HMPs?

Really, i'm just trying to stop this from turning into a bunch of people shouting past eachother and flinging ****.

If the concern is that nantex dumpster aces real good, how would it be significantly better than say, 4 Gunner zetas and... whatever costs 36 and is good. Let's pretend another gunner zeta fit because it's close enough for the sake of argument.

This list is very similar- A SF is around as defensive as a Nantex that never tractors (Zeta is a little more tanky, notably against focus fire), but the SF has much, much, better main gun uptime, and is consistently defensive. Dials are somewhat similar. Nantex is faster, but it also critically has the comically worse offensive uptime and if it utlizes the speed, is very frail. The zetas wouldn't be destroying aces any time soon, afaik, if that list existed.

For them having good matchups on generics, I've only had one battle report given to me for 8x FO vs 6x Nantex, and the answer there was "Nantex were unable to effectively damage 32 hp at agility 3 before being blocked and chewed up by the volume of shots"

I think the issue is that generics across the board are still kinda bad, much worse than named pilots, point for point. Like, would you rather have

A Predator Crack i4 Nantex
A TIE Striker with Crack Shot (i3)

The nantex is cheaper by a point.

It seems like there's a new generic list that is actually capable of chasing aces down somewhat and mitigating their defenses and people are up in arms?
OR
This was a meme tournament that no one really took seriously. I've not seen any videos of (near) optimal play on both sides in a game involving 6tex.

Also i just want to watch videos.

14 minutes ago, Brunas said:

Right, but then the point is that the repositioning after being blocked is irrelevant - we just don't want to play against 6 rz2s.

And that's OK! You're allowed to not want to play against that! I'm just skeptical that the chassis ability not requiring fully executing a maneuver is the part that is the most unfun, and want to confirm that.

Gotcha. It's not the worst part of the list. It's just part of the math. Maybe it is the worst for other folks, I cannot say.

The strengths of the list are:

• Resistance to blocking due to Pinpoint Tractor Array allowing them to reposition when blocked
• Resistance to obstacles due to Pinpoint Tractor Array allowing them to reposition when they hit or land on a rock or gas
• Near 100% time on target due to the turret and multiple arcs x6
• Three die bullseye backed by Crack Shot is strong and hard to avoid when you have 6 of them
• I4 and a decent bid on six ships allows them to be 6 aces versus the majority of the field
• 6 bodies make blocking aces* trivial
• a great dial, one of the best in the game
• So cheap that when you destroy one you've only gained around 32-33 points.

*Aces that cannot run away and still get shots

Just now, Do I need a Username said:

So if all the nantex were i3 instead of i4, with the same talents, would you be fine with it?

It's a step towards solving the issue? I'm not 100% sure that's the whole solution. 6 i3s with crack or 6 naked i4s could be a healthy spot for the list as a whole, or maybe 6 naked i3s is the best option. I don't have any experience playing against the list myself but it seems like the initiative is one of the biggest factors towards nantex just dumpstering midrange generic lists at times.

2 minutes ago, Brunas said:

Cool, thanks. So again I want to make it clear that I'm not trying to argue with how you feel - I'm trying to make these things make sense to me. If you don't have fun against nantexes because you're playing i3 stuff and it's frustrating - got it.

Power level makes sense - to skip a whole lot of steps, losing usually isn't fun, and losing by a whole lot usually is much less fun.

I doubt nantexes or awings are blocked on rocks enough for it too matter - the fact that you're not sure if they can do it (which again, is fine), leads me to believe it's not common?

Don't worry, I'm not offended. I just checked and they do it after a maneuver is executed, so they can just straight up yeet off a rock if they feel like it, blocked or not. I think the issue of why they feel so bad might just be that they don't play the game in a normal way, like @5050Saint ninja'd out from under my hands as I wrote this. You have to reinvent the way you play the game, and we're still learning. Listen to whatever the people doing actual analysis are saying above and I think people can learn a lot about how to play the Nantexan's game and maybe beat them at it too.

3 minutes ago, 5050Saint said:

Gotcha. It's not the worst part of the list. It's just part of the math. Maybe it is the worst for other folks, I cannot say.

<snipping to save space>

yeah, if it wasn't clear, I'm asking what part of it is unfun, not which parts are powerful. There were comparisons to handbreak han before - not (necessarily) a balance issue, but instead a gameplay/fun problem.

1 minute ago, Npmartian said:

It's a step towards solving the issue? I'm not 100% sure that's the whole solution. 6 i3s with crack or 6 naked i4s could be a healthy spot for the list as a whole, or maybe 6 naked i3s is the best option. I don't have any experience playing against the list myself but it seems like the initiative is one of the biggest factors towards nantex just dumpstering midrange generic lists at times.

Don't worry, I'm not offended. I just checked and they do it after a maneuver is executed, so they can just straight up yeet off a rock if they feel like it, blocked or not. I think the issue of why they feel so bad might just be that they don't play the game in a normal way, like @5050Saint ninja'd out from under my hands as I wrote this. You have to reinvent the way you play the game, and we're still learning. Listen to whatever the people doing actual analysis are saying above and I think people can learn a lot about how to play the Nantexan's game and maybe beat them at it too.

Would you then think it is fair to summarize the reason nantexes aren't fun to play against is purely a power level issue, then?