17 minutes ago, pheaver said:

Also, we all (myself included) suck at flying aces, and have gotten super lazy with them thanks to force and token stacks. I don't think we all agree on that, but if you don't, you're wrong.

But yeah, to get back on track: from games I've watched and played, the Nantex are a typical swarm: they want to overwhelm you early with red dice and get ahead on points, and then stay ahead. Against a pure joust list, they can usually win the joust by virtue of their init, as long as they use their bullseyes as much as possible. Then, the remnants can do some ace-play against the remnants of the joust list. Against a pure ace list, they try to corner one of the elements, preferably away from the others (5 forward boost focus is really fast!). Once they get ahead, the aces have to opt in to their style of play. In most games I've seen them lose, it's because they weren't able to apply their force effectively in the opening engagement, and then got whittled down (see Oli's game for an example).

10 minutes ago, pheaver said:

I didn't say you were always the someone. Sometimes it's Travis, and sometimes it's Jeremy. It's rarely always one person. I was just getting frustrated that we were on a path to talking about the stuff that's actually helpful content, but it always seems someone derails it with inflammatory statements that then get more inflammatory statements and so on.

12 minutes ago, pheaver said:

I didn't say you were always the someone. Sometimes it's Travis, and sometimes it's Jeremy. It's rarely always one person. I was just getting frustrated that we were on a path to talking about the stuff that's actually helpful content, but it always seems someone derails it with inflammatory statements that then get more inflammatory statements and so on.

Double post for emphasis I guess.

@Chumbalaya that might be the strongest double post of all time, of all time

16 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Why would I?

"But yes, the level of bullying that happens since they get to absolutely CRUSH anything lower init than them is pretty terrifying. I was super happy with my Sabine + 4 wookiee list, but I can't do better than a 200-100 loss vs the Nantexes right now. If they didn't have crack and a reroll, I think I'd be more confident in it being a game."

No no no, don't flip to lower initiative. We agree on lower initiative. I feel we have Shrodinger's List happening.

The crux is that people also argue they just crush aces too - and that... man, that's a harder pill to swallow.

They are crushing aces, but it appears, based on what evidence has been submitted, on bad tactics. Not some inherent magic the nantexes bring.

the i4s don't help.

The bullseyes will occure far less often, really occuring more because there's 6 ships on the board than anything else.

They have turrets, but then the "front" is less likely to fire, etc.

They start acting far more like a "typical" swarm in many (not all) regards. And, again, we actually all agree they punch above their weight, just that they're not also some magical ace killer... until the aces want to just joust them into the ground like they apparently have been jousting other lists into the ground, THEN there's a problem.

...well, "problem". I think that problem is solving itself.

2 minutes ago, pheaver said:

But yeah, to get back on track: from games I've watched and played, the Nantex are a typical swarm: they want to overwhelm you early with red dice and get ahead on points, and then stay ahead. Against a pure joust list, they can usually win the joust by virtue of their init, as long as they use their bullseyes as much as possible. Then, the remnants can do some ace-play against the remnants of the joust list. Against a pure ace list, they try to corner one of the elements, preferably away from the others (5 forward boost focus is really fast!). Once they get ahead, the aces have to opt in to their style of play. In most games I've seen them lose, it's because they weren't able to apply their force effectively in the opening engagement, and then got whittled down (see Oli's game for an example).

Thanks Paul, for being the one person that actually talks about ingame decisions.

So vs lower init squads, the nantex probably want to split up and flank with a few of their dudes so that when the Remnant vs. Remnant fight begins, the nantex start behind their opponents, correct? And vs the higher init, they would likely just want to start together in a corner and set up so that they can go in either direction down the board edge towards an individual ship to jump, and avoid an isolated pocket of their 6 ships getting focus down by the entire enemy list (ie- if the split up to 2 groups of three, the triple-ace list could theoretically engage the 3 ship group and trade while the other three hang around uselessly.)

How does the nantex obtain and maintain bullseye vs lower init? How does the lower init attempt to avoid it? What about vs higher init?

24 minutes ago, Kaptin Krunch said:

So let's talk about it. How does 6x Nantex deploy? How does an "Ace" (2-3 high-initiative ships with passive/multiple defensive mods) list deploy vs it? How does a "Swarm" (Or really any lower-initiative mostly-generic squadron) deploy and break out vs this list? How does the Nantex squad obtain and maintain bullseyes? how does the other squad avoid them?

Pictures and videos preferred, the game is a visual medium.

Non-Crackshot+predator nantex is a very different story. This squad would be reliant on intimidation to be able to seriously injure a high-initiative ships with passive/multiple defensive mods. It also only exists in Hyperspace, where a lot less shenanigans. Also in hyperspace I'll probabally just be running something with Target lock for the offensive consistency anyways.

Most typical deployments I've seen tend to have them fly in two loose groups of three. Here's the Oli video I've been recommending a few times:

It has his commentary about the approach and range control as an "ace" list vs the Nantex. It's pretty good at showing a typical deployment by them, and how an ace list really needs to draw them into one of the aces so that the rest of the list can get behind them. Once behind the Nantexes, the 2 die turret with 2 agility isn't going to kill you faster than you kill them.

As for swarm counterplay, there isn't really a good way to do it that I know of, which is a problem. You want to avoid the bullseye as much as possible, but they set up after you and are more maneuverable than you. If you can figure out how to dodge their bullseye, then let us know!

On some level there's a strong scyk swarm vibe. If they want to joust another swarm they have a trade off between concentrating fire and getting the extra dice from their bullseyes

We're also going to have to grapple with the fact that while blocking is half as good. It's still effective. We didn't give up on blocking force aces just because they still get mods. We shouldn't give up on blocking nantex because they still get to repo

Without any tape I'm not sure the low I 7/8 swarm is without options here. I think you'd have to adjust your formation to being a bit looser to corral the bump rolls, but blocking seems super effective to deny mods and let you pile on damage.

6 minutes ago, Kaptin Krunch said:

So vs lower init squads, the nantex probably want to split up and flank with a few of their dudes so that when the Remnant vs. Remnant fight begins, the nantex start behind their opponents, correct? And vs the higher init, they would likely just want to start together in a corner and set up so that they can go in either direction down the board edge towards an individual ship to jump, and avoid an isolated pocket of their 6 ships getting focus down by the entire enemy list (ie- if the split up to 2 groups of three, the triple-ace list could theoretically engage the 3 ship group and trade while the other three hang around uselessly.)

How does the nantex obtain and maintain bullseye vs lower init? How does the lower init attempt to avoid it? What about vs higher init?

The only lower init squad I've played vs the Nantex was Sabine and Wookiees, and I don't think I've seen too much game tape of Nantexes vs swarms, so my commentary there will be limited. Basically, the Nantexes still break up into two groups of three, and then pincer the jousters in such a way that they get bullseye attacks (and have the turret forward in case they miss). Kill something before it can shoot, maybe lose one Nantex in return fire (since you didn't need to use tractors to line up a bullseye on a wookiee). Once the knife fighting starts, your turret at range 1 does a fine job, and sometimes you arc dodge and sometimes you get bullseye. Keep init killing enemy ships. You'll lose a few Nantexes, but they lose stuff first and faster.

And yeah, the ace game is usually better if your whole 6 Nantex blob figures out which ace is easiest points (because you can bullseye it easiest), and descends on it. Your whole goal in the swarm-vs-pure-ace matchup is to make the ace list have to be aggressive because it's behind on points.

6 minutes ago, pheaver said:

The only lower init squad I've played vs the Nantex was Sabine and Wookiees, and I don't think I've seen too much game tape of Nantexes vs swarms, so my commentary there will be limited. Basically, the Nantexes still break up into two groups of three, and then pincer the jousters in such a way that they get bullseye attacks (and have the turret forward in case they miss). Kill something before it can shoot, maybe lose one Nantex in return fire (since you didn't need to use tractors to line up a bullseye on a wookiee). Once the knife fighting starts, your turret at range 1 does a fine job, and sometimes you arc dodge and sometimes you get bullseye. Keep init killing enemy ships. You'll lose a few Nantexes, but they lose stuff first and faster.

And yeah, the ace game is usually better if your whole 6 Nantex blob figures out which ace is easiest points (because you can bullseye it easiest), and descends on it. Your whole goal in the swarm-vs-pure-ace matchup is to make the ace list have to be aggressive because it's behind on points.

The wookie matchup seems a particulat bad one because of your low agility and high ship value though. A more traditional swarm seems like it'd bear the brunt better. Especially in hyperspace

7 minutes ago, Chumbalaya said:

Without any tape I'm not sure the low I 7/8 swarm is without options here. I think you'd have to adjust your formation to being a bit looser to corral the bump rolls, but blocking seems super effective to deny mods and let you pile on damage.

Same team

6 minutes ago, jagsba said:

We're also going to have to grapple with the fact that while blocking is half as good. It's still effective. We didn't give up on blocking force aces just because they still get mods. We shouldn't give up on blocking nantex because they still get to repo

To be sure, keep on charging.

But when someone you blocked can roll off out-of-arc and still get a shot on you, it's pretty deflating. Even if it's just raw dice.

4 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

To be sure, keep on charging.

But when someone you blocked can roll off out-of-arc and still get a shot on you, it's pretty deflating. Even if it's just raw dice.

So is blocking vader and him still getting mods.

Just now, jagsba said:

So is blocking vader and him still getting mods.

Sure, but this is next level. Like, maybe Vader has a shot on someone else, maybe he doesn't. Block Boba, and at least he can't shoot you. Maybe it's hard to take advantage, but to some extend the power is in your hands. Maybe you can't easily crack a Force ace, but Nantex slip through your fingers.

Mods are great and all, but what wins is damage. Mods without attacking doesn't do damage. Attacks without mods *can*.

Interesting to see so many figuratively saying "just block/shoot/kill handbrake han"

2 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Interesting to see so many figuratively saying "just block/shoot/kill handbrake han"

Well that's an impressively bad faith argument

2 minutes ago, Three Eye Joe said:

Well that's an impressively bad faith argument

Why?

20 minutes ago, jagsba said:

The wookie matchup seems a particulat bad one because of your low agility and high ship value though. A more traditional swarm seems like it'd bear the brunt better. Especially in hyperspace

I'd be super interested in seeing tape of something like FOcho or an 8 ship Vulture swarm vs the 6 Nantex. That'd be an exciting, bloody game. The turrets would definitely have trouble getting points compared to Wookiees, and the extra ships would stand a reasonable chance of catching tractored Nantex. The interesting point is when you hit the point where the Nantex can start playing as aces and arc-dodging the lower ship count. If it gets down to 4 FO vs 3 Nantex (half dead on both sides), the Nantex should easily take that. It's really which swarm gets ahead after that first encounter, which will depend a bit on dice and basic flying tactics.

And yes, once you go to Hyperspace, the Nantex get a lot less scary without Crack Shot to front-load damage.

14 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

Sure, but this is next level. Like, maybe Vader has a shot on someone else, maybe he doesn't. Block Boba, and at least he can't shoot you. Maybe it's hard to take advantage, but to some extend the power is in your hands. Maybe you can't easily crack a Force ace, but Nantex slip through your fingers.

Mods are great and all, but what wins is damage. Mods without attacking doesn't do damage. Attacks without mods *can*.

Blocking isn't just about denying shots. Getting a block still limits the area the nantex can occupy and even better forces them to choose between staying there or losing an agility to move.

You'll have to spread your arcs out a bit more to be sure. But there's some definite room to punish them after a block

31 minutes ago, pheaver said:

The only lower init squad I've played vs the Nantex was Sabine and Wookiees, and I don't think I've seen too much game tape of Nantexes vs swarms, so my commentary there will be limited. Basically, the Nantexes still break up into two groups of three, and then pincer the jousters in such a way that they get bullseye attacks (and have the turret forward in case they miss). Kill something before it can shoot, maybe lose one Nantex in return fire (since you didn't need to use tractors to line up a bullseye on a wookiee). Once the knife fighting starts, your turret at range 1 does a fine job, and sometimes you arc dodge and sometimes you get bullseye. Keep init killing enemy ships. You'll lose a few Nantexes, but they lose stuff first and faster.

And yeah, the ace game is usually better if your whole 6 Nantex blob figures out which ace is easiest points (because you can bullseye it easiest), and descends on it. Your whole goal in the swarm-vs-pure-ace matchup is to make the ace list have to be aggressive because it's behind on points.

>And yeah, the ace game is usually better if your whole 6 Nantex blob figures out which ace is easiest points (because you can bullseye it easiest), and descends on it. Your whole goal in the swarm-vs-pure-ace matchup is to make the ace list have to be aggressive because it's behind on points.

The whole time i watched that Oli vs. 6tex game i was screaming "Why aren't you just smashing wedge! he's wedge! He can't run way from you!"

1 minute ago, pheaver said:

I'd be super interested in seeing tape of something like FOcho or an 8 ship Vulture swarm vs the 6 Nantex. That'd be an exciting, bloody game. The turrets would definitely have trouble getting points compared to Wookiees, and the extra ships would stand a reasonable chance of catching tractored Nantex. The interesting point is when you hit the point where the Nantex can start playing as aces and arc-dodging the lower ship count. If it gets down to 4 FO vs 3 Nantex (half dead on both sides), the Nantex should easily take that. It's really which swarm gets ahead after that first encounter, which will depend a bit on dice and basic flying tactics.

And yes, once you go to Hyperspace, the Nantex get a lot less scary without Crack Shot to front-load damage.

vultures sure do hate 3 agility ships.

Nantexes sure do hate auto crits (discords).

And the good news is, that game will be over in like 6 turns!

https://starfightermafia.blogspot.com/2019/08/article-12-dispersed-jousting.html?m=1

Huh. Someone way smorter than me wrote a whole series of blags that seem real pertinent right about now