As far as boogeymen go they are mostly wholesome, if underpriced. Small base bullseye ships with limited repositioning, single mods, and 2 dice turrets aren't terrors. Crack Shot betting underpriced by about 2 and getting 6 Crack Shots is the problem here.

However, the panic and outrage I'm seeing feels disproportionate, hence the push back. Of the evidence I've been provided thus far, Nantexans are innocent of any crime. Now give me a game where they rob good ace play or bully the low I generics everyone loves but nobody plays, and we'll have something to go on.

13 minutes ago, catachanninja said:

So the end result is we probably live in a world where you take high initiative front loaded damage or bombs or your own nantex until the next points adjust and that's sub optimal but probably fine.

Yeah, sounds about right.

5 minutes ago, mschobes said:

To be fair, I was trying to stir **** up during the argument, but it took a few days for my account to be approved.

Yeah, bummer it was approved.

Anyhow, I think it's interesting how quickly we went from "Why is Crack Shot Going Up?" to "Crack Shot should go up another 1-2 points."

2 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

Anyhow, I think it's interesting how quickly we went from "Why is Crack Shot Going Up?" to "Crack Shot should go up another 1-2 points."

Crack Shot Did Nothing Wrong

10 minutes ago, Cuz05 said:

Did Whisper cost 38pt?

Nope she was 52. If you're implying that percent change is a better metric I agree! Let's look at jamming beam.

10 minutes ago, Cuz05 said:

Was Jamming Beam good?

Nope. Were ensnareless PACEs good?

I agree they're undercosted but I don't think you can just look a price change and determine that.

10 minutes ago, Cuz05 said:

I'd be willing to let 6 I4 slide without the talents, just to see if the variance can make a difference. Sure, they can roll hot and be an ****, but that's true of everything. If, however, a little more variance was to come in on their red dice, and it would with those numbers, then the damage race may possibly move closer to even.

Seems like a test for hyperspace

10 minutes ago, Cuz05 said:

This is ignoring the fact that it has about the best dial in the game, so counter manoeuvre options for your own massed generics are pretty limited.

Idk if you can talk about maneuverablity without acknowledging its high agility as well

10 minutes ago, Cuz05 said:

I appreciate that this is just more of the same and not any kind of answer to the actual question. But there it is.

1 minute ago, Chumbalaya said:

bully the low I generics everyone loves but nobody plays, and we'll have something to go on.

Plenty of people have been playing cartel spacers, fangs, t-70s, jedi knights, epsilon FOs, zetas.

11 minutes ago, Cuz05 said:

Can you just stop with the whole, they're pretty fine and people only don't like them because lazy aces?

Actually, let's not.

Take 6 Nantexans with 70-60% of their talents removed. Do they still massively (and rightfully), punish lazy aces with their continuous coverage and matching Init on the I4 components?

Quite possibly. Those talents will not be firing off all the time in these matches and could probably considered little bit win more.

Given the amount of things that look to be arriving that will also punish lazy aces, perhaps this balance is returning anyway.

However, 6 Crack and a smattering of Predator, combined with the dial and roll at I4 to use them, pushes them a decent amount above anything that isn't an ace.

So. That. Screw aces, I don't care. That's not why I am hopping on the complaint bus.

Also mcschobes, troll all you like, it's water of a ducks back here. Just makes you look a bit, I dunno, desperate? Bored? I don't want to insult you in a dismissive and patronising way, but it isn't easy.

Peace, love, all good things to all people. Outski.

9 minutes ago, gennataos said:

Yeah, bummer it was approved.

True!

15 minutes ago, Cuz05 said:

Also mcschobes, troll all you like, it's water of a ducks back here. Just makes you look a bit, I dunno, desperate? Bored? I don't want to insult you in a dismissive and patronising way, but it isn't easy.

Peace, love, all good things to all people. Outski.

Read the first page, then read the dumpster fire from a few days ago. This thread was never supposed to be taken seriously, with people getting legitimately mad at each other.

Also, I really should have been mcschobes. I do like McDonald's.

7 minutes ago, mschobes said:

True!

The math post was pretty genius if you ask me

And, to be clear, I'm not just trolling. Chumbalaya has tried to explain what to do against natexans several times, yet it's just dismissed as a straw man, or bias, or dice, or whatever. We all agree they're too cheap. We don't agree that the world is ending.

I'm out of reacts. Is this how Chris feels?

Being Chris sucks

6 minutes ago, mschobes said:

And, to be clear, I'm not just trolling. Chumbalaya has tried to explain what to do against natexans several times, yet it's just dismissed as a straw man, or bias, or dice, or whatever. We all agree they're too cheap. We don't agree that the world is ending.

He has explained nothing. He has said don't joust with aces. Cool. Stop repeating it. What is everyone else supposed to do?

34 minutes ago, jagsba said:

Idk if you can talk about maneuverablity without acknowledging its high agility as well

I appreciate those responses dude, fair play. Got me to renege on my outski.

But looking at a percentage drop of that magnitude is a fair sign they're now undercosted. Proof is obviously needed.... But... well....

Ensnareless PACEs were never as bad as Jam Beam 😅

As for this quoted point, you can. Because I'm talking about setting approaches/traps/bait/whatever, so that when dice are thrown, you have managed to work an advantage on that front.

Although yes, high agility can give you leeway, but we all know that, in a perfect world, relying on your agility to bail out a fudged approach is not smart play.

I'm sure it could be felt out and achieved, still, but the burden of execution falls entirely on one side of the fence.

Oh hey, Nantexans are lazy aces now, who knew

38 minutes ago, Chumbalaya said:

As far as boogeymen go they are mostly wholesome, if underpriced. Small base bullseye ships with limited repositioning, single mods, and 2 dice turrets aren't terrors. Crack Shot betting underpriced by about 2 and getting 6 Crack Shots is the problem here.

What are you talking about? Maybe the CS is a problem for lazy Aces, but the turret + reposition are easy three attack dice against low Initiative pilots.

The Nantex are so cheap that can perform very welll against all the field. They are an efficient platform against the Aces, can block and capitalize the boxes, and they are very resilient to small amount of fire. Also, they are arc-dodgers and very good knife fighters against the low Initiative ships so they can Initiative kill one while are almost inmune to blocks and can recover from one or two loses in the first engagement.

We can play a hit and run tactic against bugs, but do you know what? They are very fast too...

I see options on listbuilding, but not a lot of game tactics, so I think is a tough matchup for many squads. That's an indicator that something is wrong (or is not well balanced).

There are a lot of issues, but the huge discount of the Nantex in the last update is the worst of them.

1 minute ago, Cuz05 said:

I appreciate those responses dude, fair play. Got me to renege on my outski.

But looking at a percentage drop of that magnitude is a fair sign they're now undercosted. Proof is obviously needed.... But... well....

Ensnareless PACEs were never as bad as Jam Beam 😅

Sure. Jamming beam is the extreme example. On the flip side imagine a hypothetical scenario where z-95s were 44 points and dropped to where they are now. That's a 50% drop! But z's are hardly playable now and definitely not busted cheap. But also. Z's are much more playable at 22 than 44pts.

Basically I'm saying a large percent drop could mean something is too cheap, it could mean something was unplayable and is now okay. It's a good indicator but not a smoking gun.

1 minute ago, Cuz05 said:

As for this quoted point, you can. Because I'm talking about setting approaches/traps/bait/whatever, so that when dice are thrown, you have managed to work an advantage on that front.

Although yes, high agility can give you leeway, but we all know that, in a perfect world, relying on your agility to bail out a fudged approach is not smart play.

I'm sure it could be felt out and achieved, still, but the burden of execution falls entirely on one side of the fence.

Oh hey, Nantexans are lazy aces now, who knew

Sure I just think they're so intrinsically intwined you can't discuss one without acknowledging the othrr

1 minute ago, jagsba said:

z-95s...44 points

why do you think z95s should be 44 points

54 minutes ago, jagsba said:

Idk if you can talk about maneuverablity without acknowledging its high agility as well

Labouring a point, take the humble Scyk. One of the reasons I like them so much, (apart from 3ag for when I F up, ofc), is because they have both 1 hard and 1 bank. They lack true interceptor mobility, with no 3 hard, boost or blue hards, but that combination of 1 speed manoeuvres, with a roll, makes for terrific flexibility on approach. At this point, dice don't matter at all. Get it right and you don't even roll greens.

Despicable

1526 pages and you still find a way to lower the bar not just for the thread but the entire forums.

In the best case you people just pretend to be like that. Jagsba, chamblee, svelok, kyle and mschobes. Zum Fremdschämen.

5 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Despicable

1526 pages and you still find a way to lower the bar not just for the thread but the entire forums.

In the best case you people just pretend to be like that. Jagsba, chamblee, svelok, kyle and mschobes. Zum Fremdschämen.

I was not aware this thread had a bar of any kind.

I'm Cave Johnson and this is my favorite thread on the citadel!

8 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Despicable

1526 pages and you still find a way to lower the bar not just for the thread but the entire forums.

In the best case you people just pretend to be like that. Jagsba, chamblee, svelok, kyle and mschobes. Zum Fremdschämen.

To quote the late warrior poet Kobe Bryant

Chumby, you could look at Oli's game vs them, where he played Dash Jake Wedge and beat them. I liked how he played, and his commentary shows his thinking of how to play against them. It was only an hour or so long, so a pretty easy watch.

As for the Nantexes, I think I'm in agreement with everyone else that they (and crack shot) are a little underpriced. I wonder how 6 naked i4s would do against the standard triple ace list. I think it'd be a fair fight.

But yes, the level of bullying that happens since they get to absolutely CRUSH anything lower init than them is pretty terrifying. I was super happy with my Sabine + 4 wookiee list, but I can't do better than a 200-100 loss vs the Nantexes right now. If they didn't have crack and a reroll, I think I'd be more confident in it being a game.

12 minutes ago, jagsba said:

Basically I'm saying a large percent drop could mean something is too cheap, it could mean something was unplayable and is now okay. It's a good indicator but not a smoking gun.

Fair. I can only respond by saying I'm one of these weirdoes that think there are hardly any unplayable ships in this game. I really didn't think Ensnareless Nantex were. Sun Fac, mebbe.

Z-95s are close.

So when I see a drop like that on something that isn't mechanically useless, I do see a smoking gun.

Probably no one will remember how much I laughed when they started reducing the terrible v1s I was flying. Then everyone started flying them and I stopped finding it funny.

2 minutes ago, Cuz05 said:

Fair. I can only respond by saying I'm one of these weirdoes that think there are hardly any unplayable ships in this game. I really didn't think Ensnareless Nantex were. Sun Fac, mebbe.

How long have you thought that? On a long enough timeline it's hopefully going to end up being true, but there are a lot of unplayable ships in the game.