1 minute ago, Chumbalaya said:

All ships matter

We've made it 1,522 pages without getting locked and I swear if this is how it happens

For me, depends on the definition of "compete." Status quo is that Aces are significantly more competitive than most things. Tappa-tappa until things get a bit more even.

if generic swarms want to win games they can do it without rioting and property damage

1 hour ago, catachanninja said:

If @Boom Owl were a representative of the general consensus of people, we would all be better off ❤️

No we would not all be better off. Because if I look at his posts he would have aces be nerfed into oblivion and out of the meta completly. While a large portion of the community also likes them as a part of the meta. I like flying with them, but also enjoy flying against them way more then flying against a swarm. Lately I have played a lot of low I stuff vs High I stuff and those were fun matches and also good practice.

Did Imp Aces need a nerf? I guess so and they got one. The lists adepted with lower I stuff in them or losing a bunch of toys. Sadly players now complain about lists as Imp Aces being to good when they use I1 Defenders or some I4 ships in the mix.

I'd like to be on record saying that I'm weary of (or have been weary of) Imp Aces, Drea swarms, quad phantoms, Handbreak Han, rebel beef, Jendon Inquisitors, Regen Jedi, Sinker swarms, CIS swarms, spamtex and some other stuff.

This way, when I say something negative about a new archetype, it's not immediately thrown back in my face that I didn't complain about other stuff.

They're mutually ******* exclusive.

I FORGOT BOBA!

I must be in love with Boba and it's fine.

4 minutes ago, gennataos said:

I'd like to be on record saying that I'm weary of (or have been weary of) Imp Aces, Drea swarms, quad phantoms, Handbreak Han, rebel beef, Jendon Inquisitors, Regen Jedi, Sinker swarms, CIS swarms, spamtex and some other stuff.

spamming down on one win condition feels bad man

trip aces is the same problem as most of the "spam" stuff people get mad at

2 minutes ago, Kyle Ren said:

spamming down on one win condition feels bad man

trip aces is the same problem as most of the "spam" stuff people get mad at

I already said I was weary of Imp Aces. I've been weary of Imp aces since 2.0 started. My only hope was Teroch and Palob, then they lopped Palob's balls off.

13 minutes ago, Kyle Ren said:

if generic swarms want to win games they can do it without rioting and property damage

They're really not helping the community. If they wanted to be viable they should just vote for soontir to protect them from the nantexans

11 minutes ago, jagsba said:

I think 2-3 acey ships are fine. It should be an option to play. But it probably shouldn't be 3 amazing aces with all the toys.

This is where I am at. The main thing is that Triple Aces in any faction shouldn't be able to fit all the toys they want and a bid. They should be sacrificing something at some point for that bid.

15 minutes ago, Kyle Ren said:

if generic swarms want to win games they can do it without rioting and property damage

Gender reveal parties are now responsible for an exponentially greater amount of property damage than overrepresented in the media riots.

But I'm not brave enough for politics.

Who's ready for a bunch of Microsoft Flight Simulator vids taking a 1-way flight to Manhattan?

28 minutes ago, Bucknife said:

It just feels like ship racism.

I want this on every page of this thread.

We keep talking about ace on swarm crimes but why aren't we mentioning swarm on swarm crime?

37 minutes ago, 5050Saint said:

I seem to remember a list called Squad of Legend that folks were pretty up in arms about. It was 183-185 points (depending whether or not you took Crack Shot or Predator). That list after the first points update had a new cost of 199-201, or would have costed that if you could still take Vader crew on Whisper. That list would be 209-11 at present.

Imp Aces are complained about, just less so now because they keep going up in price, justifiably.

i remember the quad phantom madbro at the time, i do not remember the SoL

Just now, jagsba said:

We keep talking about ace on swarm crimes but why aren't we mentioning swarm in swarm crime?

everyone keeps talking about how swarms are 3x more likely to get hit by the nerfhammer than aces, but nobody talks about the fact that swarms kill 20x as many aces as aces kill swarms. Just go to a city like chicago and you'll see nothing but swarm on swarm crime in the primarily spam neighborhoods. A bunch of degenerate thugs, if you ask me

22 minutes ago, gennataos said:

I FORGOT BOBA!

I must be in love with Boba and it's fine.

BOBA LOVER

9 minutes ago, 5050Saint said:

This is where I am at. The main thing is that Triple Aces in any faction shouldn't be able to fit all the toys they want and a bid. They should be sacrificing something at some point for that bid.

"All the toys they want and a bid" is a moving target without any clear definition, which isn't to say I disagree, more of to say I don't think that's a real position. Even the squad of legend was out there making sacrifices for a bid - every squad is always going to make sacrifices for a bid.

Exampels are probably better - let's look at the old squad of legend.

“Redline” (44)
Advanced Sensors (8)
Proton Torpedoes (9)

“Whisper” (52)
Juke (4)
Darth Vader (14)

Soontir Fel (52)
Predator (2)
Total: 185

At the time, this was running these without all the toys you want. Not bringing Advanced Sensors on Whisper, or Shield/Hull for Soontir are very big sacrifices. Here's what I'd want to run, if no bids existed:

“Redline” (44)
Advanced Sensors (8)
Proton Torpedoes (9)
Fifth Brother (9)
Seismic Charges (3)
Shield Upgrade (4)

“Whisper” (52)
Juke (4)
Advanced Sensors (8)
Darth Vader (14)
Stealth Device (6)

Soontir Fel (52)
Predator (2)
Shield Upgrade (8)
Hull Upgrade (7)
Total: 230

(fun fact this is 247 points now, not 230). But, because the total cost of squad of legend is 209, even swapping Vader to Fifth Bro. Suddenly the definition of "all the toys" has drastically changed.

Here's another example, but in republic (pre n1 release)

Anakin Skywalker (60)
R2 Astromech (4)
Delta-7B (18)

Mace Windu (45)
Delta-7B (16)

Gold Squadron Trooper (25)

Gold Squadron Trooper (25)
Total: 193

Again, at the time, not having r4 astromech on Mace was a huge sacrifice. But now this is 209 points, even without r2 astro on Mace.

The point being, there's no definitive truth for how good points or ships or lists are. Broad statements like "all ace lists are OK if they're making sacrifices to bid" are always true.

Triple post because whatever, that's not to say this is unique to aces. Every squad, even the most broken squads in the game make sacrifices in squad building. If you presuppose that the game is going to devolve into 6 nantex mirrors, they're still going to be making sacrifices for second player.

6 minutes ago, Brunas said:

Triple post because whatever, that's not to say this is unique to aces. Every squad, even the most broken squads in the game make sacrifices in squad building. If you presuppose that the game is going to devolve into 6 nantex mirrors, they're still going to be making sacrifices for second player.

... Is it a "sacrifice" if it effectively buys the W?

I mean, it is in baseball, I guess!

12 minutes ago, Brunas said:

Exampels are probably better - let's look at the old squad of legend.

*Examples

12 minutes ago, Brunas said:

Again, at the time, not having r4 astromech on Mace was a huge sacrifice. But now this is 209 points, even without r2 astro on Mace.

*R2 Astromech on Mace

Argument destroyed.

Just now, jagsba said:

*Examples

*R2 Astromech on Mace

Argument destroyed.

no i clearly meant r4 for those sweet blue turns after all those red moves mace does, definitely not half asleep at the wheel

11 minutes ago, Brunas said:

r4 astromech on Mace was a huge sacrifice. But now this is 209 points, even without r2 astro on Mace.

I see your 1.0 brain

Also, lets be clear, when we say "aces need a big nerf" we don't always mean "out of the meta" we mean "they're so comically far out of line they need a bigger nerf to adjust". Now, people will frequently respond with, "That'll push them out of the meta!" and rather than talking about how no, actually aces would be fine we mention that if aces are "gone" for a season that's probably fine, based on how infrequently other stuff has been good.

Also, "gone" implies all aces get a nerf to the point none show up ever, which is so comically hard it's impossible. Realistically, most people have a short list of aces they want to see going up.

And now I got beaten to the punch, thanks @Mattman7306

19 minutes ago, catachanninja said:

i remember the quad phantom madbro at the time, i do not remember the SoL

It was definitely around, and had 4 Jukes at the time, then dropped to 3 Jukes after the first update. It was unhealthly, too, but I don't remember folks complaining about it until SoL disappeared.

17 minutes ago, Brunas said:

"All the toys they want and a bid" is a moving target without any clear definition, which isn't to say I disagree, more of to say I don't think that's a real position. Even the squad of legend was out there making sacrifices for a bid - every squad is always going to make sacrifices for a bid.

True. It's a moving target, and "all the toys" is hyperbole. The things that would have been and actual sacrifice in SoL would have been Juke, Protorps, or AdSens. Those are the necessities that no one was even considering taking off, and they didn't need to because they were only bidding against mirrors and maybe Boba/Guri. I know that is kind a soft clarification and is, again, a moving target. So, I'll take that criticism. But Soontir with a shield upgrade is still Soontir. Redline without a Protorp is not worth really worth fielding.

14 minutes ago, Brunas said:

Broad statements like "all ace lists are OK if they're making sacrifices to bid" are always true.

I'm not certain if I agree.

20 minutes ago, Brunas said:

Again, at the time, not having r4 astromech on Mace was a huge sacrifice.

I'm not certain it is or was. R4 was 2 points reducing the bid to 5, still a substantial bid. If Ani was considering taking off R2, that might have been a sacrifice at a 4 point gain. But again, they still had a bid, even with both astromechs in tow. Even without the astromechs, they are both hyper-repositional ships with 3 force - still worth fielding. Again, I know my definitions are wishy-washy and subject to opinion, but dropping an R4 isn't a sacrifice.

7 minutes ago, 5050Saint said:

I'm not certain if I agree.

It necessarily is. If you filled every slot and are happy, you could in theory empty the slots, add the next ship, and now you're missing upgrades again.