Can we all say that being able to turn on a dime and have multiple arcs is 2e turret-wing?

This is the Golden Era of small base turrets, baby.

The only thing better than having a turret is having a small base and a turret.

Edit: and Y-wings are wholesome now...because they are limited with a terrible jouster's dial.

6 hours ago, Bucknife said:

Can we all say that being able to turn on a dime and have multiple arcs is 2e turret-wing?

This is the Golden Era of small base turrets, baby.

The only thing better than having a turret is having a small base and a turret.

Edit: and Y-wings are wholesome now...because they are limited with a terrible jouster's dial.

The difference between 1.0 and 2.0 turret Y-Wings is range and range bonus.

When you've got r1-2 and only two dice, you really want to be taking r1 shots for the extra damage. Taking r1 shots means being close. Being close means you can block or be blocked, dodge arcs or be arc dodged, have to think hard about your path around obstacles and other ships and not bumping into yourself or landing somewhere that blocks yourself. Incentivizing Y-Wings to, sort of knife fight?, sends their wholesomeness through the roof. They have to play the game, and that means both players are engaged by them.

When you've got a r2-3, highly consistent damage turret (like people try to homebrew for 2.0 about once a week) you no longer have a good reason to not just one bank every turn from a distance and just toilet bowl in perpetuity while the rest of your list does stuff. Technically speaking Y-Wings can just do this at r2 anyways if they really want to, but the incentive structure encourages a more interactive playstyle.

Also, the lower initiative and less boosty the turret is, the larger the amount of agency leftover to the opponent; and Y-Wings are notoriously low initiative not-boosty things.

One might notice that everything I've said about what can make turrets not wholesome would accurately describe extended fat han or dash or miranda; and, well, there you go.

5x Y-Wings with Ion and bombs might be wholesome, but it's not exactly laugh a minute.

2x Y-Wing with whatever is nice.

Either way, Y-Wings are fine, just occasionally bleh.

10 hours ago, Bucknife said:

"But it has no shields and a bad reposition at I4 which it can barely utilize!"

.....

*Mourning the death of all I2 and I3 generics.

I keep thinking simply forcing the Spamtex lists down to Init 3 would be a huge improvement. I4 Beef might be a viable counter, and generic ships can invest in the I3 upgrade to be immune to simultaneous attacks.

8 hours ago, jagsba said:

If you want to talk turrets we can talk turrets, but that's clearly not what I was talking.

I was talking maneuverablity. Specifically their ability to pivot.

The nantex are quite simply comparable to vultures in being able to turn on a dime.

I'm not sure the two things can be separated. Additional arcs are a multiplier on the effectiveness of any ships mobility.

The RZ-1 is almost exactly as maneuverable as the RZ-2. However, rear guns don't just open up more shots with the same maneuvers, they dramatically expand which maneuvers are good. Y-Wing maneuverability is worse than Z-95, but they can leverage it a lot better. 7B vs CLT variants are also relevant, since having that full arc instead of 2+Bullseye gives you a lot more flexibility about where a safe location is, with the exact mobility and ship ability.

8 hours ago, Bucknife said:

Edit: and Y-wings are wholesome now...because they are limited with a terrible jouster's dial.

I keep wondering if Y-Wings are under-rated. 31 for a Dorsal BTL-B, 33 with R4 Astro for good blues (but they can't really leverage them too well). Could be nice filler, and maybe even a full Y-Wing squad would be nice. That said, there isn't really a good heart-of-the-swarm pilot for them in any faction, and they don't have real arc dodging potential.

Bah, I just like plain TIE/sf more than I probably should, and keep extending that to other ships.

4 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

I'm not sure the two things can be separated. Additional arcs are a multiplier on the effectiveness of any ships mobility.

The RZ-1 is almost exactly as maneuverable as the RZ-2. However, rear guns don't just open up more shots with the same maneuvers, they dramatically expand which maneuvers are good. Y-Wing maneuverability is worse than Z-95, but they can leverage it a lot better. 7B vs CLT variants are also relevant, since having that full arc instead of 2+Bullseye gives you a lot more flexibility about where a safe location is, with the exact mobility and ship ability.

If you want to talk about some sort of combination of maneuverablity and arc coverage we can. Just don't call it maneuverablity? Call it threat projection or something else that lets me know y'all aren't actually talking about maneuverablity. If you want to talk about the nantexs ability to florkmargle that's fine. But don't call it maneuverablity than start talking about florkmargling

19 minutes ago, jagsba said:

If you want to talk about some sort of combination of maneuverablity and arc coverage we can. Just don't call it maneuverablity? Call it threat projection or something else that lets me know y'all aren't actually talking about maneuverablity. If you want to talk about the nantexs ability to florkmargle that's fine. But don't call say maneuverablity than start talking about florkmargling

Trying to talk about Nantex "maneuverability" without acknowledgement of the fact of the turret is... well... really forking useless.

The fact that a 1-hard and turret can get a Nantex a range 1 shot with a focus token is HUGE. A TIE Fighter would have to choose between the same 1-hard with perhaps no shot, and doing a K-Turn that would leave you stressed, without a token, and maybe at Range 2. There's a massive difference between where a TIE Fighter can go and remain relevant, and where a Nantex can go and remain relevant.

I don't see a better term to describe "where you can go and remain relevant" than Maneuverability.

Enter "time on target", the perfect combination of arc coverage and maneuver options to ensure the given arc(s) cover targets

1 hour ago, jagsba said:

If you want to talk about some sort of combination of maneuverablity and arc coverage we can. Just don't call it maneuverablity? Call it threat projection or something else that lets me know y'all aren't actually talking about maneuverablity. If you want to talk about the nantexs ability to florkmargle that's fine. But don't call say maneuverablity than start talking about florkmargling

Maneuverability is often tied to arc coverage so I'll agree that it's hard to separate the two. I would put forward 'time-on-target' as the what we are looking for, but I feel it just slightly misses the mark of what florkmargling represents. But as @theBitterFig said, arc coverage informs what maneuvers are good, and what maneuvers are good informs what arc coverage can be accomplished. They are hard to separate.

In any case, it's no stretch to say that the Nantex is very maneuverable. It has more maneuvers than a TIE Silencer. The inability to bank boost hampers it slightly, but having the full suite of 2's and 3's and all but the 1 straight makes for a great dial. It doesn't stress itself, so the dial is usually fully open, and if it were stressed, it has as many blues as the Silencer to clear the stress (no blue hards, though). Add to that the ability to reposition even when bumped or when hitting 2/3 of obstacles, it's pretty dang maneuverable.

I drop out of conversations when a word is used that I don't know and Google can't help me.

I think florgmargle is going to be my favorite word for today. 😎🍺

16 minutes ago, gennataos said:

I drop out of conversations when a word is used that I don't know and Google can't help me.

Florkmargle: to do whatever the heck a nantex can

This is now once again a Y-wing appreciate thread. The Y-wing is a ship that:

- Can be a turret

- Is beefy

- Can launch double mod torps (either with force gunner or dutch / jake)

- can drop bombs

- can reload

And yet it's only been considered too much when it got to shoot twice, and only until Leia Beef emerged that cycle. It's a ship with a whole bunch of red flags that are balanced out by it moving like a ton of bricks and it's super cool.

2 minutes ago, Npmartian said:

Florkmargle: to do whatever the heck a nantex can

I sure does sound like word from Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, but I can't be sure. Made up words only get one Google search from me.

4 minutes ago, gennataos said:

I sure does sound like word from Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, but I can't be sure. Made up words only get one Google search from me.

Google gives me nothing. Only Y-Wings can save me now from the bug infestation.

I'm actually a fan of Norra with Expert and/or R4 plus Dorsal or Ion for some bulky close-range coverage. The free evades might let you actually face-tank some bug shots and then slap back with Dorsal or Ion.

4 minutes ago, Npmartian said:

Google gives me nothing. Only Y-Wings can save me now from the bug infestation.

I'm actually a fan of Norra with Expert and/or R4 plus Dorsal for some bulky close-range coverage.

IDK about expert or R4 (I don't find myself rolling often enough to use it) but Norra with a turret and a bomb (ideally Proton) can put in some work and get more than 48 points back. I jus have to remember to always be locking or reloading.

I'll also continue to defend Horton as a viable pilot - rerolls are good y'all, and 37 points is a steal.

Oh, and Norra is probably going to adore concussion bombs. The rush in and just bomb them all is her thing.

1 minute ago, Do I need a Username said:

IDK about expert or R4 (I don't find myself rolling often enough to use it) but Norra with a turret and a bomb (ideally Proton) can put in some work and get more than 48 points back. I jus have to remember to always be locking or reloading.

I'll also continue to defend Horton as a viable pilot - rerolls are good y'all, and 37 points is a steal.

Fair point about expert/R4; I just feel like 2 points for either is a steal to mitigate the fact that being stressed is painful on a Y-Wing. Bombs are a good consideration; I just didn't have spare points in the list that I was making with her but they're a great choice too.

Horton's darn cheap and actually synergizes great with Norra. Could be worth slotting in, I just hadn't considered him.

15 minutes ago, Npmartian said:

Fair point about expert/R4; I just feel like 2 points for either is a steal to mitigate the fact that being stressed is painful on a Y-Wing. Bombs are a good consideration; I just didn't have spare points in the list that I was making with her but they're a great choice too.

Horton's darn cheap and actually synergizes great with Norra. Could be worth slotting in, I just hadn't considered him.

I generally see him as another blocker that gets passive (enough) mods, and you can chuck a torp or something on him to make people shoot him since he's terrible in the endgame. I get the anti-stress stuff, but IMO being stressed it fine with a turret, you just need to plan your fire stress cycle, and locking is a big part of that. Lock at range, potshot, 3 bank in, focus and hit for 3.

5 hours ago, svelok said:

The difference between 1.0 and 2.0 turret Y-Wings is range and range bonus.

wait, what? did i miss something? what about the whole 80-100 degree turret instead of 360?

So... question.

If pushing the spamtex to i3 allows i4 beef to prevail. Doesn't the masses still hate beef? Like... a lot? Wouldn't everyone just hate that too (unless aces are allowed to beat that beef, I guess?)

17 minutes ago, Brunas said:

wait, what? did i miss something? what about the whole 80-100 degree turret instead of 360?

uh, new phone who dis?

14 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

So... question.

If pushing the spamtex to i3 allows i4 beef to prevail. Doesn't the masses still hate beef? Like... a lot? Wouldn't everyone just hate that too (unless aces are allowed to beat that beef, I guess?)

Extremely different cases of "hate". Nantex lets you feel powerless. RebelBeef and other types can get boring. That's a huge difference, even if both get complained about

14 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

If pushing the spamtex to i3 allows i4 beef to prevail. Doesn't the masses still hate beef? Like... a lot? Wouldn't everyone just hate that too (unless aces are allowed to beat that beef, I guess?)

Rebel Beef has been dialed back with points considerably. Ten, Braylen, Cassian, Wedge, Crack Shot, and Leia Crew, all went up. They must make sacrifices now, as opposed to taking everything for extreme efficiency. Much more manageable.

13 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

So... question.

If pushing the spamtex to i3 allows i4 beef to prevail. Doesn't the masses still hate beef? Like... a lot? Wouldn't everyone just hate that too (unless aces are allowed to beat that beef, I guess?)

Maybe.

I think the goal is an overall healthier X-Wing meta, and the big fly in that ointment is well... the flies.

If Nantex are a bit more balanced in relation to the rest of X-Wing, maybe that makes a little bit of a difference in how often beef lists get played. Doesn't change the Ace vs Beef matchup, or Beef vs Vultures, etc etc.

If someone doesn't want to fly aces, but has a lot of Spamtex to worry about, isn't it good for them to have some other option?

7 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

Maybe.

I think the goal is an overall healthier X-Wing meta, and the big fly in that ointment is well... the flies.

If Nantex are a bit more balanced in relation to the rest of X-Wing, maybe that makes a little bit of a difference in how often beef lists get played. Doesn't change the Ace vs Beef matchup, or Beef vs Vultures, etc etc.

If someone doesn't want to fly aces, but has a lot of Spamtex to worry about, isn't it good for them to have some other option?

im trying to think of a list that was above the power curve that wasnt imperial aces that people weren't mad about in x wing history

25 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

So... question.

If pushing the spamtex to i3 allows i4 beef to prevail. Doesn't the masses still hate beef? Like... a lot? Wouldn't everyone just hate that too (unless aces are allowed to beat that beef, I guess?)

I think the key thing about forcing them down to i3 is that it opens up a lot more counter build options - most factions can either swarm at i3 with a decent level of efficiency so they aren't being initiative killed, or they can muster enough i4+ tools to arc dodge and/or initiative kill an i3 swarm. i4 can't be costed to win on efficiency *and* arc dodging. It's a bad idea in general for high initiative to be efficient, but it's also a problem because not all factions have the tools to counter it.