56 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

I'd say Advanced Sensors Defenders are definitely Aces, and I'd classify most high initiafive Defenders without Advanced Sensors as Not Good.

Lone Wolf Sensors Rex is very good. Marksmanship Autoblasters Sensors is also good, but not as tanky.

As an experiment in design space, what about a force crew that spends a force and takes a disarm token to deactivate a force charge from an enemy ship? And if they want to recover their own force back from the move, they have to suffer a crit straight to hull, but they then get to remove another force charge from a different enemy ship?

1 hour ago, Sunitsa said:

I want to point out I really like your analysis and data collection: even if I only seldom agree with your conclusions, I love the discussion they spark, so keep them coming!

In this case you were right pointing out the strong show of triple empire lists, which is an archetype I know many players considered dead as soon as oli aces didn't fit 200 anymore.

Empire, mostly in its aces variants, has been the most consistent faction of this edition, having an archetype as at the very least top 3 of every single meta and often being the very best. But now I think we might be approaching a meta where triple empire ships is actually a balanced archetype that finally needs to take some list building risks rather than being good at everything.

Is empire still a top dog? Yeah, I'm more scared by Sloane RAC than nantexes to be honest, but it might be the first time where you can face triple aces fairly.

Also hyperspace sucks

👍

57% of Vassal League's 298 hyper lists were 2-4 ships. 😃

71% of Galaxy One's 217 extended lists were 2-4 ships. 😢

Welcome to this thread, where the new coolest thing to complain about is:

*Spins wheel*

Ship counts are too low!

At least it's not more Nantex causing the sky to fall, allegedly.

1 hour ago, Hoarder of Garlic Bread said:

Welcome to this thread, where the new coolest thing to complain about is:

*Spins wheel*

Ship counts are too low!

Always has been 🔫

I'm sure that somehow this supports my narrative but I'm still figuring out how

From: Jan 2020 - Present
Format: Extended

• Average 6.98 upgrades per list.
• Average 304.17 words per list.
• Top Cut only:
• Average 6.68 upgrades per list.
• Average 306.17 words per list.

Format: Hyperspace

• Average 6.06 upgrades per list.
• Average 295.69 words per list.
• Top Cut only:
• Average 5.75 upgrades per list.
• Average 374.88 words per list.

39 minutes ago, svelok said:

I'm sure that somehow this supports my narrative but I'm still figuring out how

From: Jan 2020 - Present
Format: Extended

• Average 6.98 upgrades per list.
• Average 304.17 words per list.
• Top Cut only:
• Average 6.68 upgrades per list.
• Average 306.17 words per list.

Format: Hyperspace

• Average 6.06 upgrades per list.
• Average 295.69 words per list.
• Top Cut only:
• Average 5.75 upgrades per list.
• Average 374.88 words per list.

Between this ^

14 hours ago, Boom Owl said:

👍

57% of Vassal League's 298 hyper lists were 2-4 ships. 😃

71% of Galaxy One's 217 extended lists were 2-4 ships. 😢

And this ^

Its not surprising that some players prefer Hyperspace over Extended. And vice versa.

I am once again reminded of the most accurate online ruler.

Also adding this since it has more columns now.

VL10 - Hyperspace Only (Needs more games...comparing league to a full tournament doesnt really make sense)

43 minutes ago, svelok said:

I'm sure that somehow this supports my narrative but I'm still figuring out how

From: Jan 2020 - Present
Format: Extended

• Average 6.98 upgrades per list.
• Average 304.17 words per list.
• Top Cut only:
• Average 6.68 upgrades per list.
• Average 306.17 words per list.

Format: Hyperspace

• Average 6.06 upgrades per list.
• Average 295.69 words per list.
• Top Cut only:
• Average 5.75 upgrades per list.
• Average 374.88 words per list.

Words OP, PLZ nerf.

14 minutes ago, 5050Saint said:

Words OP, PLZ nerf.

I don't know what 100% of the #s discussed & shared these past 50 pages mean.

This game is still an absolute classic though. I keep landing on "Moot!"

2 hours ago, 5050Saint said:

Words OP, PLZ nerf.

I used the words to destroy the words.

1 hour ago, Hoarder of Garlic Bread said:

I used the words to destroy the words.

You are part of the problem. "I flew words just to prove words are OP." Yeah, right.

19 minutes ago, 5050Saint said:

You are part of the problem. "I flew words just to prove words are OP." Yeah, right.

Wasn't claiming that. I forgot the quotations, which would thereby imply that FFG are Thanos--a meme within my local community considering how prominent he is in their Marvel products. He even has his own game! (-edit-, that game is actually by USAoploy)

I am part of the problem, but not a significant part. I'm the "annoying level" of problem: I'll stop a lot of healthy things from making cut, but not do well enough for cut myself.

1st edition: Rey does drugs all by herself.

2nd edition: First Order Shares drugs.

53 minutes ago, FlyingAnchors said:

1st edition: Rey does drugs all by herself.

2nd edition: First Order Shares drugs.

You hear that? That's the sound of the five other bandit mains who play x wing joining the first order

Sorry for all the reacts guys I accidentally scrolled up.

Always good to see the same throughlines are running strong:

Fort Hyperspace: Words are evil, upgrades are excessive, please annihilate purple and orange.

The Rest Of Us: We agree those things are too strong and should be nerfed.

Fort Hyperspace: They must be kept from greatness. Only 5-8 ship list players are true masters of this art.

The Rest Of Us: Easy now; there are some fun and totally wholesome 3-4-ship lists out there.

Fort Hyperspace: No list should ever have more than 4 upgrades.

The Rest Of Us: Isn't that a little arbitrary?

Fort Hyperspace: Dash, Defenders, and Dengar shouldn't be in the game. Initiative should be scaled exponentially. All arcs should be bullseyes. Reposition shouldn't exist. Actions should be on the dials. Evade tokens shouldn't exist. The variance should be more punishing. In an ideal world, there would be no green dice.

Someone: Hey this list is doing really well and is kinda NPE should we be worried?

Fort Hyperspace: NO THESE ARE THE ONLY THINGS WE SHOULD WORRY ABOUT WHERE DID WE LOSE YOU?

Me: Okay I'm lost.

1 minute ago, ClassicalMoser said:

In an ideal world, there would be no green dice.

this is absolutely not a belief held by fort hyperspace

12 minutes ago, svelok said:

this is absolutely not a belief held by fort hyperspace

I thought some would prefer Armada-style defense tokens? Perhaps a minority view.

At any rate, there was some intentional exaggeration here, but not intended in any disparaging sense. Never change, FFG forums. You’re like an old friend I can always trust to confuse me.

4 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

I thought some would prefer Armada-style defense tokens? Perhaps a minority view.

At any rate, there was some intentional exaggeration here, but not intended in any disparaging sense. Never change, FFG forums. You’re like an old friend I can always trust to confuse me.

I didn't dispute anything else for a reason

but no, the anti-agility gang and the fort hyperspace gangs are two very different gangs

19 minutes ago, svelok said:

but no, the anti-agility gang and the fort hyperspace gangs are two very different gangs

Fair.

imagining that everyone in the fort would agree on every take is bound to lead to a confusing set of parameters because we all build our own little forts, even inside of the big fort.

that being said yeah I think there's some opinions there that come from outside the fort entirely

I'm a bit lost in here most of the time.

1 hour ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Dash, and Defenders, and Dengar shouldn't be in the hyperspace game .

1 hour ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Words are evil, and upgrades are excessive in extended, please annihilate limit access to purple and limit access to multiple highest orange ships per faction in hyperspace

1 hour ago, ClassicalMoser said:

They must be kept from greatness. Only 5-8 ship list players are fun and the community seems kinda consistently biased in favor of low ship count lists true masters of this art.

1 hour ago, ClassicalMoser said:

No list should ever have more than 4 upgrades in 3.0 maybe.

1 hour ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Initiative should be scaled exponentially. limited to single pips for i5 and i6 in 3.0 maybe.

1 hour ago, ClassicalMoser said:

All arcs should be bullseyes. is usually interesting and one of the best new ideas in 2.0

1 hour ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Reposition shouldn't exist. should cost something significant besides points

1 hour ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Actions should be on the dials in 3.0 maybe.

1 hour ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Evade tokens shouldn't exist in 3.0 maybe

1 hour ago, ClassicalMoser said:

The variance should be more punishing.players should talk less about variance. I heard about spooky variance on twitch chat. It sounds scary.

1 hour ago, ClassicalMoser said:

NO THESE ARE THE ONLY THINGS WE SHOULD WORRY ABOUT WHERE DID WE LOSE YOU? 6 nantex does not concern me more than a long list of existing lists in extended given their current costs.

If your still lost please refer to the 5 whys and my friend Korg's advice.

I've been thinking more and more about a rework that would mean initiative should go from low-to-high in all phases. Move first, shoot first. Move last, shoot last. Doesn't work with current initiatives, but could work in 3e. Right now, arc dodgers are also initiative killers, and blockers only block. What if the arc dodgers were only arc dodgers, but the blockers were now the initiative killers?

• Academy Pilot and and Skull Squadron Pilot and Luke would be middle initiative, like 4 or so. They'll dodge some, and outshoot others. Middle ground.
• Soontir, Fenn Rau would move last and shoot last, Init 6 or 7. Feels right for Soontir to patiently arc dodge last, or Fenn to just park himself at Range 1 and have the guts to sit through all the attacks.
• Han Solo and Kylo Ren and Zealous Recruit would move first and shoot first, Init 1 or 2. Some folks are just eager, and willing to take the bet that they'll still have shots after everyone else moves, and can leverage those shots.

There'd be all sorts of interesting things you could do with talents. Lightning Reflexes could be back, but usable only on Init 1-2.

Ordnance ships like Gunboats and Punishers and K-Wings could safely be high initiative, to make it really easy to get locks, but they'll have to survive through all the incoming fire. Kinda like Torpedo E-Wings, or Jendon Bombers. Low-initiative ordnance seems plausible, too. Would you rather have a chance to nuke someone first, even if it was really hard to actually acquire the locks? No Passive Sensors in this thought experiment. Ah, an actual trade-off.

I think it'd be a cool world.

Maybe nerf the Initiative Killing rules, too...

6 hours ago, Boom Owl said:

I agree with pretty much all of them.

These last few pages would have been very different if the snide could haven been replaced with "spamtex might earn a spot between some already concerning stuff in extended". You know, like the idea of a watchlist.

Instead we got ******* Turr as part of "meta dominating imperial aces"

I don’t believe Turr is or has ever been good, but I think the design is a little bit of a problem. It is really good if he moves last and shoots first, which feeds into orange escalation. There are plenty of reasons already to bring big orange.

My earlier view that Nantex are a more Rock Paper Scissors than other ships also applies to Turr, and advanced sensors Guri, and other things with potential of high mobility and a mod. The harder these i3, i4 and sometimes i5 ships beat up on i1 and i2, the more it pushes people to big orange and correlating big purple in response.

I’m still playing the game and having fun, but the closer the lists are in power the more fun the game seems to be. The better list being the biggest factor in winning was why I started checking out at the end of first edition. I’m super glad that points are adjustable, but as we get better at flying pieces and understanding list building I’m convinced force and initiative should probably keep ticking up in points, even if nothing else in the game changes.

I trust Max. He has a more story/rpg background and a strong case of “wouldn’t it be cool if...” but he seems to get it.