The list of imperials...

e: there is no discussion about Force or large orange numbers or passive mods in general. The old imp aces were too good. Again, no discussion.

That means there is also no reason to bring it up. Reminds me of Lois saying 9-11...

19 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

Specifically, I said I *DON'T* want Wired or Wookiee Commandos to come back.

Mostly, just that if someone did want a way of modifying dice for a pilot or crew or talent, something which only rerolls eyes is probably better than some other form of rerolls or face-turns. Whatever the particular trigger might be.

What if Boba Fett was "you may reroll 1 eye result per enemy ship at range 0-1"? What if Juke-like Jink was "reroll 1 eye result" for the attacker? What if the next equivalent to Concordia Faceoff was "when defending at Range 1, you may reroll your eye results"? I don't think it should be a general talent, maybe it could be a limited Crew or Gunner for one faction or another, but it'd probably be nice to have also some sort of restriction.

Oh, I wasn't accusing you of wanting them back. The "EW" reaction was just a reflex. I do think things like Wired and Wookmandos should be evaluated for porting over, though, because as you said, rerolling a somewhat useful result, is much better as a passive mod than turning a result. My suggestions were considerations for port them over while limiting them further.

What happened to the "last to reposition, high mobility ship" definition of ace? Why is the ps1 defender considered one now?

And mind you, I have been one of the most critical voice against aces, imperial in particular, in this thread since ever, so hating on them is like smashing an open door with me... But we are getting ridiculous here.

Are ps1 defender good? Maybe. Are they aces? Lolwat

40 minutes ago, DoubleDown11 said:

Do you personally see this as a problem with other factions? For instance, do you find Vulture swarm dominance discourages folks flying swarms in other factions? Is it undesirable if a faction is closely tied to an archetype (i.e. Empire being the "triple ace" faction, CIS being the "swarm" faction, Republic being the "bad" faction, etc.)? I find, for me, this seems okay, but this is so subjective that I'm quite curious to hear other perspectives on it.

Nope. Nope. Nope.

Little bit.

CIS has really taken over swarms pretty hard, but like, they've only been around a year and a half. Imp Aces, as @AEIllingworth points out, has been really common for *ages* reaching back into 1e. There's probably some point in time where it'd be good to change it up. Hyperspace seems like a great tool for it, since nerfs aren't necessarily appropriate, but depriving vultures of their struts and missiles for a while would make things interesting, open up space for other swarms (maybe Howlrunner or Sinker comes back for a spell).

Also, factions feeling locked into a single archetype is kinda bad. Imperials have often fell flat in hyperspace, since so much of their depth is in their "Ace" roster. Vultures are, at least to me, kinda the least interesting ship in the CIS faction. Nantex are a hair underpriced, but they're really wild and distinct ships. Belbullabs are zippy X-Wings with bad blues and linked actions I think they're wicked fun. Infiltrator is about as balanced as a large-base bruiser is going to get. Hyenas have more ordnance options. HMP look really cool, like a Turret Y-Wing or TIE/sf with unique mobility and a nifty ship ability. Tri-Fighters are coming down the pike. **** Jango, but you get my picture. If CIS is "Vulture Swarm: The Faction" then everything else becomes kinda... pointless. Pretty FeelsBadMan if three quarters of a faction goes almost unused. Again, Hyperspace might be able to solve that. What if the Vulture just wasn't in HS for a season? CIS becomes an entirely new faction then.

But... not yet. I can see ways in which maybe at some point it's... well... I don't necessarily want to say "a problem" but maybe... "something undesirable."

57 minutes ago, DoubleDown11 said:

Incidentally I've felt at various times in 2e that the best factions for flying the old Imperial Aces type lists wasn't Empire. Triple 7b reminded me a lot of the 1e Palp Aces experience (which I say in a good way but I suspect this has different connotations for others). Right now, I sort of wonder if FO isn't the better Aces faction (largely based on Kylo).

FO does seem like the ace faction right now in Hyperspace. Extended they haven't looked super impressive, between 7B and a deep Imperial bench.

Also, maybe I'm just an oddball, but I greatly enjoy the non-Ace FO, stuff like generic Silencers and TIE/sfs.

To put it another way, it's nice that in Hyperspace, First Order kinda takes over for Imperials as a great ace faction. It's fun whenever Resistance Beef replaces Rebel Beef for a little while. Spice of life and all that.

Which of these would you most want to play if they exist?

9 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

Which of these would you most want to play if they exist?

Are people going to accuse me of running cancerous 6 ship too cheap CIS ships if i pick no. 10?

If so, then I'll take it!

I don't think i1 Defenders are aces. They're problematic for their own reasons, but they're not the same.

Its super ok if players are happy with Trip Empire variations in Extended. I just posted some stats about the archetype and freely shared the lists that I categorized because I thought it was interesting. Don't stress to much about it. If I remove the 2xDelta Echo list the win rate and cut rate barely changes ( not that any of the stats here matter much either for `1 tournament )....it was just something to share and to think about.

The archetype (even its mixed with i4 varieties) does not exist in nearly the same capacity in Hyper which is a good way to distill down the general appeal of the format for me.

So in the end I guess there is something for everyone. Thanks Max.

14 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

I don't think i1 Defenders are aces. They're problematic for their own reasons, but they're not the same.

Yeah, I see redline (without advS) in the same vein.

A 2 imp aces with something else isn't trip imp aces, but its in the same genus

The double Delta echo feels like ace squad if your squad was chonkers

23 minutes ago, jagsba said:

Yeah, I see redline (without advS) in the same vein.

He really does need AdSens to be an Ace. Otherwise, he's beef.

47 minutes ago, 5050Saint said:

He really does need AdSens to be an Ace. Otherwise, he's beef.

Real wedge energy

I'm just glad to see everyone here properly referencing the definition of an ace

1 hour ago, Boom Owl said:

Which of these would you most want to play if they exist?

7 or 8 for me I think

as an ace squad squad gang and occasional ace ace squad squad gang player, I’m excited for having tridroids and vultures working together

6 minutes ago, catachanninja said:

I'm just glad to see everyone here properly referencing the definition of an ace

Dash is an ace right?

Just now, catachanninja said:

I'm just glad to see everyone here properly referencing the definition of an ace

"Ace" relative to what?

Is it the initiative, or the dial/repositions that makes an ace? If Soontir is outbid, is he no longer an "ace"?

1 hour ago, Biophysical said:

I don't think i1 Defenders are aces. They're problematic for their own reasons, but they're not the same.

For that matter, I wonder if the named Defenders are "aces", or just high-init tanky jousters. Don't need to arc-dodge when you can just go into peoples' faces!

33 minutes ago, QQMoore said:

"Ace" relative to what?

Is it the initiative, or the dial/repositions that makes an ace? If Soontir is outbid, is he no longer an "ace"?

For that matter, I wonder if the named Defenders are "aces", or just high-init tanky jousters. Don't need to arc-dodge when you can just go into peoples' faces!

The definition of ace is...

scattered, non sequentially across the first 1337 pages of this thread, and possibly hidden with no context in a podcast

Just now, catachanninja said:

The definition of ace is...

scattered, non sequentially across the first 1337 pages of this thread, and possibly hidden with no context in a podcast

I believe Alexander Hamilton wrote the original definition of an X-Wing ace on the back of the American constitution.

Incidentally, also a guy who hated the Empire and wanted to see the Rebels do well.

1 minute ago, DoubleDown11 said:

I believe Alexander Hamilton wrote the original definition of an X-Wing ace on the back of the American constitution.

Incidentally, also a guy who hated the Empire and wanted to see the Rebels do well.

And do you have any idea how annoying it was to hear "Not Gonna Miss My Shot" across the table every game?

21 minutes ago, catachanninja said:

The definition of ace is...

scattered, non sequentially across the first 1337 pages of this thread, and possibly hidden with no context in a podcast

TZM had the definition, see, but then he went out on a boat, and we all thought the segment was about losing guns. It’s really our fault. He can’t give the definition now because it’s somewhere at the bottom of a lake.

4 hours ago, svelok said:

Imperial Three Ship High Maneuverability Upgrade Heavy Favorably Undercosted Passive Token Ships, or A.C.E.S. for short

its an acronym

4 hours ago, Boom Owl said:

Its super ok if players are happy with Trip Empire variations in Extended. I just posted some stats about the archetype and freely shared the lists that I categorized because I thought it was interesting. Don't stress to much about it. If I remove the 2xDelta Echo list the win rate and cut rate barely changes ( not that any of the stats here matter much either for `1 tournament )....it was just something to share and to think about.

The archetype (even its mixed with i4 varieties) does not exist in nearly the same capacity in Hyper which is a good way to distill down the general appeal of the format for me.

So in the end I guess there is something for everyone. Thanks Max.

I want to point out I really like your analysis and data collection: even if I only seldom agree with your conclusions, I love the discussion they spark, so keep them coming!

In this case you were right pointing out the strong show of triple empire lists, which is an archetype I know many players considered dead as soon as oli aces didn't fit 200 anymore.

Empire, mostly in its aces variants, has been the most consistent faction of this edition, having an archetype as at the very least top 3 of every single meta and often being the very best. But now I think we might be approaching a meta where triple empire ships is actually a balanced archetype that finally needs to take some list building risks rather than being good at everything.

Is empire still a top dog? Yeah, I'm more scared by Sloane RAC than nantexes to be honest, but it might be the first time where you can face triple aces fairly.

Also hyperspace sucks

2 hours ago, Jeff Wilder said:

And do you have any idea how annoying it was to hear "Not Gonna Miss My Shot" across the table every game?

"Not throwing away my shot"

2 hours ago, QQMoore said:

For that matter, I wonder if the named Defenders are "aces", or just high-init tanky jousters. Don't need to arc-dodge when you can just go into peoples' faces!

I'd say Advanced Sensors Defenders are definitely Aces, and I'd classify most high initiafive Defenders without Advanced Sensors as Not Good.

2 hours ago, DoubleDown11 said:

I believe Alexander Hamilton wrote the original definition of an X-Wing ace on the back of the American constitution.

Incidentally, also a guy who hated the Empire and wanted to see the Rebels do well.

No politics on my Facebook feed please.

5 hours ago, Sunitsa said:

What happened to the "last to reposition, high mobility ship" definition of ace? Why is the ps1 defender considered one now?

Ace (noun).

A ship which helps a player's MoV by avoiding damage, including through token stacking, initiative kills, passive mods, and high-information repositioning.