6 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

They've got a lot of pieces. Just looking at the lists above, 3 different Defender pilots, 3 different Phantoms, 2 TIE/v1 (oddly, no 5th Brother pilot), 2 Punishers, 2 Reapers, 1 Interceptor, 1 TIE/x1, 1 Striker, 1 Gunboat. That's 16 different pilots, with varying levels of success in the old Imperial 3-ship. Even nerf all those and there are potentially other folks who could step up.

The lists are so diverse that it feels a bit strange to combine them all into trip aces.

I agree with what you said about imp aces being a known problem, and there's no reason to continuously point it out.
But I also want to stress how different these lists are! These are no Vader Whisper GI. I don't know why we would pretend otherwise. Or why we would treat them as equal.

I like the bit where 2x Delta and a Reaper is Imp aces.

1 hour ago, Cuz05 said:

I like the bit where 2x Delta and a Reaper is Imp aces.

I mean, I unironically agree that the delta squadron pilot is an ace.

Imperial beef

3 hours ago, Cuz05 said:

I like the bit where 2x Delta and a Reaper is Imp aces.

Updated from the previous post, below is with a Deathfire list removed along with other lists like the reaper ones that looked a little goofy. I consider Deltas aces for sure. I dont think the 13 Empire lists included here are to much of a stretch to label as Empire Aces. But I wont try to convince anyone further of that as it was already a somewhat pointless thing to summarize. I understand that some players are less concerned or more accepting of Empire Aces than Nantex. Its ok for that to be the case and these tournament results aren’t really relevant to that. I think players generally decide whats a problem for the game based on “gameplay” combined with tournament performance over the longhaul. I know thats what I do, often weighing gameplay entirely over tournament stats. Thats pretty normal and is informed by different personal preferences about the game.

42 minutes ago, svelok said:

I keep having the thought of turning Juke into roughly 1e Wired or Wookiee Commandos. Reroll an eye result. It won't stack with a Focus token or a target Lock, and often wouldn't stack with a Force gunner.

There's something really cool about that "reroll eyes" modification style, I think. I don't want straight 1e wired or Wookiees to come back, but keeping that mechanic in some way would be fun. Primarily, I love that it doesn't stack well with most other dice mods.

12 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

As included in the previous post, below is with 3 of the Empire lists removed that looked a little goofy. I think 2 had reapers. I consider Deltas aces for sure. I dont think the 14 Empire lists included here are to much of a stretch to label as Empire Aces.

Count me as calling a Defender close enough to an Ace, but also as thinking of Ace/Ace/Shuttle as close enough as a list archetype, well... maybe... see below...

7 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

The lists are so diverse that it feels a bit strange to combine them all into trip aces.

This is also a good point. They aren't really the same list, but I think they kinda share in the same problem. The folks at the top don't pay enough taxes.

Meanwhile, Nantex/Defender watchlist, but only for small nerfs.

I left Delta Delta Echo in and removed the Ace Ace Shuttles. Also updated the post above to remove Deathfire.

vague operational definition of an imperial ace* list

• exactly three ships. sometimes four but thats rare and usually something else. consisting of some combination:
• Vader
• Soontir
• Any Phantom, but mostly Whisper and Echo really.
• Redline. maaaaybe deathrain sometimes.
• Any Defender
• Duchess
• A Reaper makes it a different but very, very adjacent thing.
• Vynder
• Any unique Inquisitor, really, but especially Grand Inquisitor.
• Turr and Maarek probably count too when they're forced off the bench by hyperspace rotations. Mostly too bad to get noticed.
• There might be some really marginal lists that look trip acey and include, like, a naked i5 TIE Fighter as basically two ship ace plus a high init filler. Also mostly too bad to get noticed.

meanwhile we're getting alarmingly close to people calling lists with exactly four ships swarms

19 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

I left Delta Delta Echo in and removed the Ace Ace Shuttles. Also updated the post above to remove Deathfire.

UK about to be very upset with you

5 minutes ago, svelok said:

vague operational definition of an imperial ace* list

It's wrong to move from a imperial ace list to the imperial ace list we all mean when we talk about how problematic imperial ace lists are. That's called false equivalence and is a fallacy.

5 minutes ago, svelok said:

meanwhile we're getting alarmingly close to people calling lists with exactly four ships swarms

Where?

Before last point update people were calling for a nerf on imperial aces so that they either had to choose to use an I4 or lower instead of all I5+ or loose some of the toys on the I5's.

Wish granted by hitting Whisper decently hard and then we start calling a list with an I1, I4 and an I5 imperial aces because it perfoms well and has 3 imperial ships???

7 minutes ago, Revanur said:

Wish granted by hitting Whisper decently hard and then we start calling a list with an I1, I4 and an I5 imperial aces because it perfoms well and has 3 imperial ships???

All ships with repositions are now aces. The only acceptable chassis are the Lambda and Ghost, all else is NPE. Bow down to the space cows.

/s

I'm missing something, why are Imperial Aces bad? Would they be more acceptable if they were Rebel ships?

Are there genuine concerns that these lists are problematic for the game because they've been competitive more consistently than other ships? Or are they just not in line with individual tastes for X-Wing matches?

Some lists and ships are going to be better than others, is it just that it's the Empire's "turn" or something like that? Or their turn has been too long???

Ship that tractors itself to move: band

Ships with repo-focus, double repo, 🟧, 🟪, advanced sensors, passive mods, free focus: pure

1 hour ago, theBitterFig said:

There's something really cool about that "reroll eyes" modification style, I think. I don't want straight 1e wired or Wookiees to come back,

Ew. Wired making every B-Wing Braylen-lite would be terrible. Perhaps make it a force talent, as the force loves eyeball results, so rerolling them would actually be a gamble. Ezra would potentially live forever, though maybe that's not incredibad.

For Wookiee Commandos, perhaps we could use some keyword thingie here. Like you can only take them on Wookiee pilots or something? That's only Auzitucks and Chewbacca at this point, but the Republic will likely get Wookiees at somepoint, and there are Bounty Hunter Wookiees out there for Scum.

10 minutes ago, Chumbalaya said:

Ship that tractors itself to move: band

Ships with repo-focus, double repo, 🟧, 🟪, advanced sensors, passive mods, free focus: pure

Not remotely what I'm saying. With very, very few exceptions, it's cost. It's always cost. Almost any ship in the game can be fair or broken if it's costed well or poorly. Nantexes are costed poorly right now. Most of the nefarious aces listed above, like Turr Phennir, are costed reasonably well. Not all of them, before you "gotcha" my argument too hard, but most.

I was just saying yesterday that I think the Nantex is undercosted currently to a concerning degree, and today I'm purely trying to understand why Imperial Aces draw so much ire.

17 minutes ago, Chumbalaya said:

Ship that tractors itself to move: band

Ships with repo-focus, double repo, 🟧, 🟪, advanced sensors, passive mods, free focus: pure

Calling i1 Defenders ships with repo focus, double repo, 🟧, 🟪, advanced sensors, passive mods, free focus: priceless

3 minutes ago, 5050Saint said:

Ew. Wired making every B-Wing Braylen-lite would be terrible. Perhaps make it a force talent, as the force loves eyeball results, so rerolling them would actually be a gamble. Ezra would potentially live forever, though maybe that's not incredibad.

For Wookiee Commandos, perhaps we could use some keyword thingie here. Like you can only take them on Wookiee pilots or something? That's only Auzitucks and Chewbacca at this point, but the Republic will likely get Wookiees at somepoint, and there are Bounty Hunter Wookiees out there for Scum.

Specifically, I said I *DON'T* want Wired or Wookiee Commandos to come back.

Mostly, just that if someone did want a way of modifying dice for a pilot or crew or talent, something which only rerolls eyes is probably better than some other form of rerolls or face-turns. Whatever the particular trigger might be.

What if Boba Fett was "you may reroll 1 eye result per enemy ship at range 0-1"? What if Juke-like Jink was "reroll 1 eye result" for the attacker? What if the next equivalent to Concordia Faceoff was "when defending at Range 1, you may reroll your eye results"? I don't think it should be a general talent, maybe it could be a limited Crew or Gunner for one faction or another, but it'd probably be nice to have also some sort of restriction.

47 minutes ago, DoubleDown11 said:

I'm missing something, why are Imperial Aces bad? Would they be more acceptable if they were Rebel ships?

Are there genuine concerns that these lists are problematic for the game because they've been competitive more consistently than other ships? Or are they just not in line with individual tastes for X-Wing matches?

Some lists and ships are going to be better than others, is it just that it's the Empire's "turn" or something like that? Or their turn has been too long???

It's kinda Crack Shot, but for lists rather than Talents. The ubiquitousness is a problem as much as the power, and it kind of discourages folks flying aces of other factions. At least for me mostly a "their turn has been too long," with the recognition that their turn has been this long, because they're quite good.

1 minute ago, theBitterFig said:

The ubiquitousness is a problem as much as the power, and it kind of discourages folks flying aces of other factions.

That's an interesting position, really appreciate the insight.

Do you personally see this as a problem with other factions? For instance, do you find Vulture swarm dominance discourages folks flying swarms in other factions? Is it undesirable if a faction is closely tied to an archetype (i.e. Empire being the "triple ace" faction, CIS being the "swarm" faction, Republic being the "bad" faction, etc.)? I find, for me, this seems okay, but this is so subjective that I'm quite curious to hear other perspectives on it.

Incidentally I've felt at various times in 2e that the best factions for flying the old Imperial Aces type lists wasn't Empire. Triple 7b reminded me a lot of the 1e Palp Aces experience (which I say in a good way but I suspect this has different connotations for others). Right now, I sort of wonder if FO isn't the better Aces faction (largely based on Kylo).

Imperial Three Ship High Maneuverability Upgrade Heavy Favorably Undercosted Passive Token Ships, or A.C.E.S. for short

4 minutes ago, svelok said:

Imperial Three Ship High Maneuverability Upgrade Heavy Favorably Undercosted Passive Token Ships, or A.C.E.S. for short

And now go through the list for Corellia with that criteria. Particularly undercosted.

Turr Phenir. Wtf

9 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

It's kinda Crack Shot, but for lists rather than Talents. The ubiquitousness is a problem as much as the power, and it kind of discourages folks flying aces of other factions. At least for me mostly a "their turn has been too long," with the recognition that their turn has been this long, because they're quite good.

To expand on that, some form of imperial aces (particularly if we include double defender and shuttle) has been a reasonable squad to bring if not outright good at least since autothrusters were released in first edition November of 2014.

Six years, we are so used to it that it doesn’t really stand out.

To be fair, the only other thing that has seemed to make a splash in imperial is swarms, and people complain about those too. Deep thinking question: has there ever been a successful squad that didn’t get complained about?

13 minutes ago, Chumbalaya said:

Ship that tractors itself to move: band

Ships with repo-focus, double repo, 🟧, 🟪, advanced sensors, passive mods, free focus: pure

I'm fairly certain no one is saying Imperial or Republic aces are pure. Both are old hat to complain about, and they have been receiving point increases steadily. Soontir, Whisper, I5 and I6 Passive Sensors, 5th Bro Gunner, Obi, 7B, Plo, and Ric all went up, so the issue is known and at least being addressed.

This Nantex list (if we are counting only the PWA and Crack Shot) used to be 234 points. It dropped 42 points. Drop any non repo-focus, double repo, 🟧, 🟪, advanced sensors, passive mods, free focus list by 42 points and my guess it is probably going to do really well. Drop any generic by 8 points, it s probably going to do really well, even ones that are currently over priced. Add to that I4 and unblockable reposition, it just gets worse.

Ship counts:
Average: 4.00
Median: 4
Mode: 3
71% of lists were 4 ships or fewer

% of lists with force by faction:
Rebel: 10 / 35 (28.57%)
Empire: 32 / 41 (78.05%)
Scum: 15 / 45 (33.33%)
Resistance: 18 / 31 (58.06%)
FO: 15 / 29 (51.72%)
Republic: 15 / 18 (83.33%)
CIS: 0 / 18 (.00%)

Lists with force: 105
% of lists with force: 48.39%
Total pilots with force: 153 (17.65%)
Force pilots per table: 1.41