17 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

To be fair, one person did say "cancer territory," even if most folks are like "maybe like +2 points so they don't get great talents too."

That would be the lack of nuance I'm talking about. Jumping on the worst possible case of an argument and attacking that is not helping honest, good faith, charitable discussion. That's why the concept of steel manning exists.

e: aaaah, the juxtaposition is amazing

15 hours ago, svelok said:

is this how nantex won all of their games?

Just errata them to fully execute and smoothbrain aces won't blindly thonkjoust.

For the record, lining up Bullseyes, if you understand how ships move, is not a super-veteran level game skill. At the same time, it takes a lot more work than deciding when to spend a force token or deciding when to boost or barrel roll out of arc.

It's hard for me to see Nantex as anything other than "maybe a little too good for their cost".

3 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

For the record, lining up Bullseyes, if you understand how ships move, is not a super-veteran level game skill. At the same time, it takes a lot more work than deciding when to spend a force token or deciding when to boost or barrel roll out of arc.

It's hard for me to see Nantex as anything other than "maybe a little too good for their cost".

I think we can all agree on maybe a little too good for their cost

Vagabond? More like Inbound for Dathomir.

2 minutes ago, jagsba said:

I think we can all agree on maybe a little too good for their cost

Oh suddenly we can?

41 minutes ago, 5050Saint said:

I would say that about 70% of lists won't have a counter strategy to these. To beat this, the best strategy I see is to have large orange and purple numbers. We don't want to encourage the meta to go back that direction.

Because about 70% of players joust?

timely

3 minutes ago, jagsba said:

I think we can all agree on maybe a little too good for their cost

no i still think they're bad and the players are carrying the list

you cant just take my hill away from me without a permit

3 minutes ago, svelok said:

timely

no i still think they're bad and the players are carrying the list

you cant just take my hill away from me without a permit

They can be a little undercosted and still being carried by the player

3 hours ago, DoubleDown11 said:

This is one of those things that I think used to be a useful rule of thumb but now is just sort of a glib X-wing catchphrase that gets thrown around.

The whole notion that most X-wing players are drooling morons who opt into every joust (other than the folks in this thread who are clever enough not to and therefore should be comprising the cut of every event) undercuts the whole role of how the “correct jouster” set up their list, obstacles, and ship deployment.

Is jousting incorrect if turn zero has played out such that your choice is essentially “joust or die”? I mean, if you or anyone else has a clear notion of how to cleverly not joust this, I’m all ears. I’ve played it and played against it, and if the Nantex player is good with their rotations and their range control, I don’t know what the approach is. Flank it? The Nantexes turn and kill whichever element, and maybe lose a Nantex or two, and then their rotations/repositions/dial mean they’re right back on the other element(s) of your list. Block and punish? They run into and bounce off your blocker with their ability, and your block becomes an arc dodge, and you might as well have just blocked Arvel or Zari. Drag it through the obstacles? Again, unless your Nantex player has done something bizarre, the obstacles are their friend and not yours. Wait for your preferred engagement or hit time trying? I hope you salvo at more than 18 reds, because that’s what the Nantex list is doing.

I’m not trying to be condescending or hostile here; if you or anyone has clear answers on how to approach against this list that they’ve actually had success with, I’m all ears, because I’ve found it breaks enough rules for this to be incredibly difficult. But I have no idea how a list such as big clunky RAC and 3 i1 TIEs was expected to somehow outmaneuver and out position the i4 Nantexes, or how Redline (who is still a TIE Punisher!) was supposed to come up with some novel approach that the Nantexes just couldn’t simply respond to with a strategy of trading one sacrificial Nantex for one Redline worth twice the cost.

The best sarcasm doesn’t use a /s

1 hour ago, S4ul0 said:

Because about 70% of players joust?

Not really.

This list doesn't care about jousting. It can joust, arc-dodge, or ace depending on the matchup. I've only seen the list fly twice (if we don't count betreps), and neither of those two times was it jousted, and yet shredded the entire opponent's list for two Nantex.

3 hours ago, DoubleDown11 said:

This is one of those things that I think used to be a useful rule of thumb but now is just sort of a glib X-wing catchphrase that gets thrown around.

The whole notion that most X-wing players are drooling morons who opt into every joust (other than the folks in this thread who are clever enough not to and therefore should be comprising the cut of every event) undercuts the whole role of how the “correct jouster” set up their list, obstacles, and ship deployment.

Is jousting incorrect if turn zero has played out such that your choice is essentially “joust or die”? I mean, if you or anyone else has a clear notion of how to cleverly not joust this, I’m all ears. I’ve played it and played against it, and if the Nantex player is good with their rotations and their range control, I don’t know what the approach is. Flank it? The Nantexes turn and kill whichever element, and maybe lose a Nantex or two, and then their rotations/repositions/dial mean they’re right back on the other element(s) of your list. Block and punish? They run into and bounce off your blocker with their ability, and your block becomes an arc dodge, and you might as well have just blocked Arvel or Zari. Drag it through the obstacles? Again, unless your Nantex player has done something bizarre, the obstacles are their friend and not yours. Wait for your preferred engagement or hit time trying? I hope you salvo at more than 18 reds, because that’s what the Nantex list is doing.

I’m not trying to be condescending or hostile here; if you or anyone has clear answers on how to approach against this list that they’ve actually had success with, I’m all ears, because I’ve found it breaks enough rules for this to be incredibly difficult. But I have no idea how a list such as big clunky RAC and 3 i1 TIEs was expected to somehow outmaneuver and out position the i4 Nantexes, or how Redline (who is still a TIE Punisher!) was supposed to come up with some novel approach that the Nantexes just couldn’t simply respond to with a strategy of trading one sacrificial Nantex for one Redline worth twice the cost.

unironically one of the reasons why i fetishize pinwheel and other variations of tight formations, is if you are jousting, particularly diagnoally, you increase your chances of being able to engage with 100% of your list against less than 100% of your opponents list.

Plus it's cool

11 minutes ago, catachanninja said:

unironically one of the reasons why i fetishize pinwheel and other variations of tight formations, is if you are jousting, particularly diagnoally, you increase your chances of being able to engage with 100% of your list against less than 100% of your opponents list.

I think there are three phases in most X-Wing players' journey.

Phase one: I'm going to fly tight formations of my whole gang of ships! This is what worked when I was flying Howlrunner/Drea/Sinker/Serissu/Vultures, and so I'm going to do this with everything because that's what I'm going to do.

Phase two: Look at these fools flying their ships in unnecessary formations when there's no 0-1 range effect to chase! I'm going to spread my jousters wide and fly them non-uniformly to leverage their whole dials and keep my opponent guessing.

Phase three: I keep losing because my ships aren't all showing up to the party at on time and I'm having disadvantaged opening engagements with <100% of my jousters shooting! If I fly them in a tight formation, I'll be able to focus fire.

Imagine thinking that Nantex on the same level as imp aces makes them wholesome

E: after manipulating the data to show all nantexes and not just the list in question no less!

10 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

Imagine thinking that Nantex on the same level as imp aces makes them wholesome

E: after manipulating the data to show all nantexes and not just the list in question no less!

One of the Nantex lists that made cut was Stagans I think so I just grabbed Nantex Ship type. Updated with 2 of the "odd" ones removed. Though I guess I should remove the "bad" Trip Empire lists to of which there are several. Wouldn't make a huge difference probably puts Empire Aces at a little over 60%+ win rate and 40%+ cut rate. Both are worth tracking for future tournaments. Though my opinion on Nantex likely won't change much. Mostly I just thought this info would be interesting for people. I can stop sharing if thats preferred.

Setting aside all the fighting about Nantex....I really do think Empire Aces are a much bigger problem that has been with us for roughly 2 years now without much concern from the community.

With 3 Empire lists removed that looked a little goofy.

1 hour ago, Boom Owl said:

Setting aside all the fighting about Nantex....I really do think Empire Aces are a much bigger problem that has been with us for roughly 2 years now without much concern from the community.

There's probably a lot of recency bias. Imperial Aces have always been a bit of an issue. But the fact that they've kind of always been too potent means a lot of folks get lazy about it. Don't feel we've got to say "nerf imps" every time, since, dangit, they're still strong. Old news.

Now, I figure a lot of folks who think the Nantex should be watched carefully, maybe go up in price enough to lose talent access, probably are fine with some basic Empire nerfs. Maybe not quite as many as you've typically called for, but still.

Or at least, that's my perspective, and maybe I'm just projecting.

5 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

There's probably a lot of recency bias. Imperial Aces have always been a bit of an issue. But the fact that they've kind of always been too potent means a lot of folks get lazy about it. Don't feel we've got to say "nerf imps" every time, since, dangit, they're still strong. Old news.

Now, I figure a lot of folks who think the Nantex should be watched carefully, maybe go up in price enough to lose talent access, probably are fine with some basic Empire nerfs. Maybe not quite as many as you've typically called for, but still.

Or at least, that's my perspective, and maybe I'm just projecting.

Yea its all good man. Its ok if players are worried about the Nantex. Its possible to have thoughts about both. Of course I understand that. For me Ensareless Nantex is lower on the list of Extended concerns by a significant margin. Galaxy Tournament results very likely won't make me more concerned about Nantex. Shouldn't be to controversial of a take.

End of the day the answer to Empire Trip Aces was a limited format which isn't to surprising and largely has worked pretty well.

2 hours ago, Boom Owl said:

Setting aside all the fighting about Nantex....I really do think Empire Aces are a much bigger problem that has been with us for roughly 2 years now without much concern from the community.

My thoughts are....

15 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

There's probably a lot of recency bias. Imperial Aces have always been a bit of an issue. But the fact that they've kind of always been too potent means a lot of folks get lazy about it. Don't feel we've got to say "nerf imps" every time, since, dangit, they're still strong. Old news.

Now, I figure a lot of folks who think the Nantex should be watched carefully, maybe go up in price enough to lose talent access, probably are fine with some basic Empire nerfs. Maybe not quite as many as you've typically called for, but still.

Or at least, that's my perspective, and maybe I'm just projecting.

Pretty much this, it's the beast we know. I've loathed Imperials since 2.0 launched.

Opinions about what's a problem and what's not a problem aside, for those who feel these online events "don't matter", what's the context in which anything is scrutinized? Everything is online.

17 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

End of the day the answer to Empire Trip Aces was a limited format which isn't to surprising and largely has worked pretty well.

Imp aces seem hard to fix with points, because it's whack-a-mole.

They've got a lot of pieces. Just looking at the lists above, 3 different Defender pilots, 3 different Phantoms, 2 TIE/v1 (oddly, no 5th Brother pilot), 2 Punishers, 2 Reapers, 1 Interceptor, 1 TIE/x1, 1 Striker, 1 Gunboat. That's 16 different pilots, with varying levels of success in the old Imperial 3-ship. Even nerf all those and there are potentially other folks who could step up.

So Hyperspace comes. It's not a great substitute for full balance, but with a faction this tricky, it can do well. Cut down the options (and the toys available to the different pilots), and the lists just aren't there. It is indeed a good thing. A few things slip through, but still.

Just a minor pro-hyperspace ramble. I'm not as committed to the fort as some, but still glad of it.

7 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

Imp aces seem hard to fix with points, because it's whack-a-mole.

They've got a lot of pieces. Just looking at the lists above, 3 different Defender pilots, 3 different Phantoms, 2 TIE/v1 (oddly, no 5th Brother pilot), 2 Punishers, 2 Reapers, 1 Interceptor, 1 TIE/x1, 1 Striker, 1 Gunboat. That's 16 different pilots, with varying levels of success in the old Imperial 3-ship. Even nerf all those and there are potentially other folks who could step up.

So Hyperspace comes. It's not a great substitute for full balance, but with a faction this tricky, it can do well. Cut down the options (and the toys available to the different pilots), and the lists just aren't there. It is indeed a good thing. A few things slip through, but still.

Just a minor pro-hyperspace ramble. I'm not as committed to the fort as some, but still glad of it.

One of the cool things about hyperspace is even though something like Soontir is still undercosted they can just add him to hyper and remove Vader and its mostly fine without having to mess with Soontir's cost specifically. Same thing applies to Republic kinda. Part of it might be that players who care enough to complain about Trip Empire's continued discounts being a problem aren't playing as much Extended. Wild unfounded speculation though.

11 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

Imp aces seem hard to fix with points, because it's whack-a-mole.

So Hyperspace comes. It's not a great substitute for full balance, but with a faction this tricky, it can do well. Cut down the options (and the toys available to the different pilots), and the lists just aren't there. It is indeed a good thing. A few things slip through, but still.

It's indeed whack-a-mole, even in hyperspace. Back in january, before the whole coof situation, I played against a local empire player with the new points in hyperspace. His list? Vader, Rac, Duchess.

44 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

They've got a lot of pieces. Just looking at the lists above, 3 different Defender pilots, 3 different Phantoms, 2 TIE/v1 (oddly, no 5th Brother pilot), 2 Punishers, 2 Reapers, 1 Interceptor, 1 TIE/x1, 1 Striker, 1 Gunboat. That's 16 different pilots, with varying levels of success in the old Imperial 3-ship. Even nerf all those and there are potentially other folks who could step up.

I mean, it'd be kind of cool to just nerf all of them and make Empire play some i4s for a season... worst case scenario Empire is bad for one rotation, which may seem unthinkable to Empire players but pretty much every other faction has experienced it at some point depending on how you judge Republic's lifespan or the half-a-season of CIS initial release

14 minutes ago, svelok said:

I mean, it'd be kind of cool to just nerf all of them and make Empire play some i4s for a season... worst case scenario Empire is bad for one rotation, which may seem unthinkable to Empire players but pretty much every other faction has experienced it at some point depending on how you judge Republic's lifespan or the half-a-season of CIS initial release

But like, half of those *are* the i4s or lower... Seventh Sister, Echo, Sigma, Onyx, Delta, Feroph, Vynder, Deathrain. No doubt Fifth Brother would join in.

I'm not saying don't do it. It'd kinda be cool to see TGI and Vader and Soontir sit out for a season. Just that there's a LOT of aces in Empire. Can't swing a dead rathar without hitting one.