i liked the part where none of the a-wings shot backwards

9 minutes ago, svelok said:

i liked the part where none of the a-wings shot backwards

They might have been able to but they all got destroyed and did nothing before never being seen again.

TLJ is for sure Anti-AOE propaganda.

13 minutes ago, svelok said:

i liked the part where none of the a-wings shot backwards

I liked the part when the TIE/fo bumped a bomber and insta-killed 3.

TIE/fo = OP

20 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

I liked the part where Poe did a Talon Roll.

WAIT!?

Poe has RED maneuvers?!?!

1 hour ago, Managarmr said:

FFG designs their own game. And while I am not fond of the influx of ships with good to excellent dials and the ability to fire in several directions (Rz2, TIE sf), they are tolerable if they are fairly costed. (Btw the 104th Arc is undercosted as well, but at least it flies like a brick).

However, Zizi is not fairly costed, as the overabundance corroborates. Every time something is nearing autoinclude level, or is actually an autoinclude for certain ships or pilots, which applies for optics, then it deserves a hard look.

Especially as FFG does not separate casual and hardcore tournament costs.

But some posters here will defend all Rz2s to the bitter end.

I think you've missed my only point. X makes up Y% of lists in faction Z, therefore it's too good isn't a good argument. I don't care about RZ2s at all - I don't play them, but I don't mind playing against them.

It's OK to say you don't like playing against them, and you think they should be more expensive so they're played less. If Zizi were unfairly costed (she might be, but there are so many worse offenders out there that this is a very odd fight to pick), the correct things to be pointing at would be things like winrate, swiss performance, matchups, etc - not how often they are played. There are cases where how often something is played is useful, but generally only when they get popular enough that the mirror match is a real concern, which RZ2As are very far away from.

18 minutes ago, Brunas said:

X makes up Y% of lists in faction Z, therefore it's too good isn't a good argument.

It could just be faction blandity.

I mean, Vultures are in around 99% of Separatists lists, so.................

Okay, I've probably been unreasonably pissy when people talk about game design stuff. I don't see a lot of value in it, but I can choose to ignore it instead of poking it. My bad.

When it comes to the RZ-2 and the suggestion that they're somehow broken or over-costed, I feel I can legitimately defend them because I've played them a metric ton. All of them, in various squads including varying amounts of fellow RZ-2s and other wingmates. I felt L'ulo going up was deserved (maybe not quite as much). I feel Zizi could probably go up a point, maybe two. I'm not unreasonable. But, I've played them more than enough to feel I can speak to their power level. They're not what I would consider powerful. Not even remotely in relation to a lot of other stuff out there. @Brunas has kind of proven that out, yeah?

So, if they're not overly powerful, what's the problem? If it's how they're designed, that's a subjective opinion that is unlikely to generate any sort of official change, and I'll see my way out.

3 minutes ago, gennataos said:

So, if they're not overly powerful, what's the problem? If it's how they're designed, that's a subjective opinion that is unlikely to generate any sort of official change, and I'll see my way out.

I mean, yeah, that's what I've been trying to get across. If someone thinks they're not fun - great! There's clearly a not-fun tax, look at supernatural reflexes and luke gunner. It's just important to be clear that that is the situation.

1 hour ago, gennataos said:

If it's how they're designed, that's a subjective opinion that is unlikely to generate any sort of official change, and I'll see my way out.

Its absolutely how they are designed. Im sure there are at least a couple cards or ships in the game your not same team with for primarily design reasons.

We all know you and dragoon put a ton of time into playing RZ2As. Kudos for that. @GreenDragoon thread in particular is just awesome. Not liking Rz2As doesnt mean we dont recognize the time yall put in. Also doesnt mean there is a general lack of understanding of their capabilities either.

Competitive practice and tournament list selection are completely separate from design discussion or preferences or even meta analysis. Mostly separate topics.

Lets move on from RZ2As. Lots of players genuinely don't like their design. Its not shocking. Players didnt like 5 VTG Y Wings or 5 Barrage Bombers either and those couldnt boost with a rear arc at i5.

We need a new ship to complain about for the next 500 pages. I nominate the Defender.

20 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

We need a new ship to complain about for the next 500 pages. I nominate the Defender.

If FFG keeps buffing the price for some inane reason, we might have to.

For the time being, though, they pay their taxes.

2 hours ago, Boom Owl said:

Lets move on from RZ2As. Lots of players genuinely don't like their design. Its not shocking.

I agree. Just three things:

Playing them a lot does not mean I'm (we're) too biased to see the need for adjustment of some pilots. You can go back 2 pages to see me saying how Zizi and optics should both increase. What annoys me is the constant conflation of "Rz2" and specific pilots. That led to an increase of the generics a year ago, for example. So I push back a bit when that happens.

Second, we somehow keep coming back to this because @svelok (and others, also you I think?) keep mentioning how they have to be nerfed. I don't get how this is such a constant issue when there are so many much more imbalanced ships to change. And as you know I'm not particularly fond of design discussions anyway.

Third, I did start this one as troll-y snippet during the points hype. I thought the "fite me" gave it away, but also that we would get points some minutes later. So... sorry that didnt happen and we got stuck?

@GreenDragoon Main reason I still think about RZ2A costs is in comparison to other things of similar cost. Its just a weird reference point ship for things between 30-40 pts. Always has been. I don’t think they need a points increase based on how crazy extended is in general.

Either way, its cool man your thoughts on Rz2As and other things are always welcome

I unironically love our little forum community.

@svelok, @Brunas, @theBitterFig, @Boom Owl, @Ablazoned, @gennataos, @GreenDragoon, and all y'all can't remember to tag at the moment.

Y'all make me laugh and cry and play more X-Wing.

Keep it up.

I played Scum on TTS tonight.

1 hour ago, gennataos said:

I played Scum on TTS tonight.

You had fun.

Say it.

Never thought X-Wing could be that fun, huh?

6 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

Second, we somehow keep coming back to this because @svelok (and others, also you I think?) keep mentioning how they have to be nerfed. I don't get how this is such a constant issue when there are so many much more imbalanced ships to change. And as you know I'm not particularly fond of design discussions anyway.

i didnt even do it this time, it was self-victimization

7 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

I agree. Just three things:

Playing them a lot does not mean I'm (we're) too biased to see the need for adjustment of some pilots. You can go back 2 pages to see me saying how Zizi and optics should both increase. What annoys me is the constant conflation of "Rz2" and specific pilots. That led to an increase of the generics a year ago, for example. So I push back a bit when that happens.

Second, we somehow keep coming back to this because @svelok (and others, also you I think?) keep mentioning how they have to be nerfed. I don't get how this is such a constant issue when there are so many much more imbalanced ships to change. And as you know I'm not particularly fond of design discussions anyway.

Third, I did start this one as troll-y snippet during the points hype. I thought the "fite me" gave it away, but also that we would get points some minutes later. So... sorry that didnt happen and we got stuck?

I think the other thing that happens: we come across some suggestion of a nerf, then add in our preferred methods, and then only care about the methods. "If RZ-2 needs a nerf, the best way would be to do... optics or base prices... or punish words only... or or or..." and half forget the whole "If it needs a nerf" part by the time we get two posts in.

I genuinely think it's easier to debate good ways to fix something, than whether or not it really needs a fix. And that's the fun. Even if it doesn't need a fix, there's scope for the imagination in *how* to fix it.

6 hours ago, Bucknife said:

You had fun.

Say it.

Never thought X-Wing could be that fun, huh?

It wasn’t the first time!

13 hours ago, Boom Owl said:

Also TLJ is alot better movie on second viewing if you ignore exactly 25% of it.

Can confirm. The second time I watched it, I fell asleep during Canto Bight, and the movie got remarkably better.

Honestly, the worst part about TLJ was people telling me why I didn't like it and how I was wrong, when in reality I disliked it for completely different reasons.

37 minutes ago, gennataos said:

It wasn’t the first time!

Can confirm. He dabbles in Scum often but then retreats back to the comfort of Rey, Poe, and their A-Wing buddies.

12 minutes ago, 5050Saint said:

Honestly, the worst part about TLJ was people telling me why I didn't like it and how I was wrong, when in reality I disliked it for completely different reasons.

Mostly same team (I genuinely liked the film).

4 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

(I genuinely liked the film)

I liked and disliked it. There are some brilliant moments in that film, but also plenty of missteps IMO. I would say that about any of the sequels, honestly, but TLJ was the most jarring for me.

In other news, would a unique double crew that allowed double jam for a Reaper be too good? Require the jam action so you can only put it on the Reaper and the Lambda. I'm trying to make Reapers work, but I can't seem to get anything besides Vermeil to do well. I had some fun with Vizier, but still nothing in the realm of strong.

29 minutes ago, 5050Saint said:

Can confirm. He dabbles in Scum often but then retreats back to the comfort of Rey, Poe, and their A-Wing buddies.

If it can't boost, it's hard for me to bother.

I grab the steering wheel

I yank it to the right

should i1 and i3 vultures cost the same price?

6 minutes ago, svelok said:

I grab the steering wheel

I yank it to the right

should i1 and i3 vultures cost the same price?

If that'll encourage swarms to take I3 so I can more easily block them, sure!

4 minutes ago, svelok said:

I grab the steering wheel

I yank it to the right

should i1 and i3 vultures cost the same price?

Perhaps, you lose blocking potential and get less offensive value from TA-175.

Should the double and triple limiteds Vultures cost the same as their generic counterparts of the same initiative? Currently, they are 2 point above.