2 minutes ago, Ablazoned said:

This is an interesting point, because while you can look at a lot of lists and call 'em jank fairly, it's also quite clear that the not-that filters upwards in performance, even at those events.

Agree and disagree. A Vader/Rexlar list made it to top 4 in one which I think qualifies as jank. I also think CIS shows up less as setting up formation flying is harder in TTS which would probably skew the numbers.

31 minutes ago, 5050Saint said:

A Vader/Rexlar list made it to top 4 in one which I think qualifies as jank.

i6 Precog and Advanced Sensors Defenders most definitely do not count as jank. 😛

3 hours ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Wonder if Ruthless can get in on that action?

I’d be super okay with seeing that in most imp lists. It’s not good but it’s fun and fluffy.

I can't recall who said it, but someone on this website once said something like "If Ruthless was free, a lot of players would use it and wind up losing games and not realize why."

It's a useful thing to have, and when timed well and used sparingly, it can help you win games. But knowing when it's safe to sacrifice health for damage takes some subtlety. This isn't like Treacherous which just doesn't trigger, but Ruthless can be actively bad for your chances of winning the game.

The only reason I don't want Ruthless to be free is so players don't fall into the trap. That's also one reason why I'm opposed to some sort of scaling spreadsheet cost on Juke.

4 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

I can't recall who said it, but someone on this website once said something like "If Ruthless was free, a lot of players would use it and wind up losing games and not realize why.

I forget which said it first, but I recall both @Magnus Grendel and @Brunas posting that.

10 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

I can't recall who said it, but someone on this website once said something like "If Ruthless was free, a lot of players would use it and wind up losing games and not realize why

I may not be a very smart man...but isn't it a super easy decision? Like, is one hp on my guy worth more than his guy? I'll take a damage on Jendon to deal a damage to soontir, yeah most definitely.

Sure, I'm sure there are subtle cases, but the metric is at least there, right?

1 hour ago, Ablazoned said:

I may not be a very smart man...but isn't it a super easy decision? Like, is one hp on my guy worth more than his guy? I'll take a damage on Jendon to deal a damage to soontir, yeah most definitely.

Sure, I'm sure there are subtle cases, but the metric is at least there, right?

Soontir is r3 with a focus. Do you spend a health on a tie to get 2 hits and a crit? What if he has focus/evade? Or you have 2 other 2 die shots coming at him, but those are r3 obs?

3 Agility ships are a gamble to use vs unless you can guarantee the damage is going through.

RZ2s should go down/stay equal and optics up. They are rather bad on their own, while optic is only used on them and silencers. Fite me

7 hours ago, Smikies02 said:

Soontir is r3 with a focus. Do you spend a health on a tie to get 2 hits and a crit? What if he has focus/evade? Or you have 2 other 2 die shots coming at him, but those are r3 obs?

3 Agility ships are a gamble to use vs unless you can guarantee the damage is going through.

Yes this depends on whether I have more shots on him that can hit. So, if it's the only (real) shot, I only do it if I'm ahead. If the only other shots are r3 obstructed, no I don't.

My rough approximation for 3 hits versus 4f is like 50% to hit, right? So likely forcing a focus spend for 0.5 crit chance is only worth it with good follow-up.

Or, put another way, half a hit on soontir is absolutely worth more than a hit in an academy, but absolutely not worth soontir's focus without followup.

Im glad we are talking about Ruthless.

Ruthless is an extremely cool card with actual in game consequences. It would be funny in First Order. I have used it primarily on Duchess. Most fun Blocker Sacrifice by far is Deathfire. Like many cards it can justify its points even if you don't use it every round.

For Extended its 100% useless garbage. For Hyperspace its a little less useless because they made it slightly harder to just bring more Aces with Passive Mods. Weird.

Bracing.

note: not directed at anything in particular

The best and easiest lists in 2.0 by far are Ace Alpha Strikes that Joust.

Will the PDF finally address this?

3 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

RZ2s should go down/stay equal and optics up. They are rather bad on their own, while optic is only used on them and silencers. Fite me

But Optics is totally fine on everything except (1) ships with the Force or Fanatical, so the issue is probably the Force and Fanatical (2) RZ-2s (3) Maybe TIE/sf, but these might even be fine. If the fear of RZ-2 is greater than their actual winning percentage, TIE/sfs are practically kittens for how much actual success they've had. Between some high initiative As and useful pilot abilities and boosting, RZ-2 seem meaningfully enough better.

And yet, it's also true that non-Optics A-Wings aren't good enough. Points balance can be a frustrating tapestry, where pulling on one thread really messes up something else.

I'd prefer A-Wings go up for two reasons:

1. I don't really play A-Wings but play other stuff that takes Optics. Yep. Selfish answer. I like my Heroic/Optics Red Vet T-70s as nice plain ships. I know I should just be flying Kaz and Cova-Leia instead.
2. Boosting turrets with 3 agility seem to really annoy some people. They can RNG out of dice rolls better than an SF, and can bend their arcs that much faster. It kinda stinks when something that's not wicked unfair still annoys enough players that FFG reacts.

In compromise, I'd totally be willing to have non-gunner TIE/sf and Kylo and Fanatical all go up, to keep Optics affordable.

//

It's a little like Juke and Phantoms, but to a much lower degree. Optics isn't as busted on an RZ-2 as Juke on a Phantom, and Juke was way worse on anything that didn't get a free Evade than Optics is on some stray ship. However, there's a combination of Upgrade/Ship that's frustrating-enough, and neither without the other is that menacing. What to change? With Juke, Juke was bad enough that I've got no issues with massively nerfing it, since most ships shouldn't have been taking it at 4 points. Optics is trickier, because it's a lot closer to the bubble, a lot closer to OK. A T-70 or whatever can take Optics and be reasonable.

10 hours ago, Ablazoned said:

I may not be a very smart man...but isn't it a super easy decision? Like, is one hp on my guy worth more than his guy? I'll take a damage on Jendon to deal a damage to soontir, yeah most definitely.

Sure, I'm sure there are subtle cases, but the metric is at least there, right?

It's usually not going to be Soontir at Range 1 of Jendon, though.

Is it worth sacrificing a health on a Striker to add a hit against a B-Wing? Well, with a B-Wing, you're pretty confident that the damage will actually go through. So maybe if this and the other attacks this turn will kill it (particularly before it shoots) it might be worth it. Against a T-65, it gets trickier, since they've got that much better of a chance to have green dice save them, and you'll have taken a damage for nothing.

Enough folks make bad decisions in list building, overload ships with weak upgrades, have too low a ship count. I know that a lot of players would make mistakes with Ruthless.

Flipside: Reducing the cost of Ruthless squads by 1 point per ship probably doesn't even make enough of a difference to really matter, probably doesn't make the lists good enough. If that benefit isn't there, why expand the risk of misuse?

20 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

But Optics is totally fine on everything except (1) ships with the Force or Fanatical, so the issue is probably the Force and Fanatical (2) RZ-2s (3) Maybe TIE/sf, but these might even be fine. If the fear of RZ-2 is greater than their actual winning percentage, TIE/sfs are practically kittens for how much actual success they've had. Between some high initiative As and useful pilot abilities and boosting, RZ-2 seem meaningfully enough better.

And yet, it's also true that non-Optics A-Wings aren't good enough.

RZ2s without optics are non-existent. You might as well remove them. The only surviving pilots might be large orange numbers, if at all. The negative impact of points increase on RZ2s is much larger because it removes 8 pilots where optics is mandatory. Optics on T70s is entirely optional.

At the same time optics is simply not a thing on redvets or others. I would like to have Juke on RZ1s, but I have to accept that phantoms are too good with affordable Juke. Similarly, you have to accept that Silencers (Kylo in particular), Fanatical, and RZ2s are too good with optics.

Kylo being good with optics is a myth, try running it on the calculator. The difference between force focus optics and just force locks too low to justify spending those extra points.

Do you really expect optics to go up thought? Even Awing raising seems pretty improbable to me, maaaaybe just zizi but she was basically just released so I'm not sure on her either

16 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Optics on T70s is entirely optional.

That's what it comes down to. Mediocre Optics ships are fun, but unnecessary. While Fanatical and Kylo could easily be sufficiently nerfed, A-Wings are essentially unfixable. Given this, it makes more sense to nerf Optics.

Just really sticks in my craw that a reasonable upgrade like Optics might have to pay the price, because A-Wings were designed in a way that probably can never be fair for player and opponent at the same time.

10 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

That's what it comes down to. Mediocre Optics ships are fun, but unnecessary. While Fanatical and Kylo could easily be sufficiently nerfed, A-Wings are essentially unfixable. Given this, it makes more sense to nerf Optics.

Just really sticks in my craw that a reasonable upgrade like Optics might have to pay the price, because A-Wings were designed in a way that probably can never be fair for player and opponent at the same time.

I don't understand why RZ-2s have to be fixed.

10 minutes ago, gennataos said:

I don't understand why RZ-2s have to be fixed.

Same. The idea that they are somehow broken requires a lot of support because there's none at the moment.

It's a very academical argument: they have turrets and boost, so clearly they must be broken.

In reality, the single mod, 4hp and 3 agility make them vulnerable enough to keep them in check.

I would even go as far that they are very well designed and balanced because they have a ton of incredibly fair matchups.

47 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Same. The idea that they are somehow broken requires a lot of support because there's none at the moment.

It's a very academical argument: they have turrets and boost, so clearly they must be broken.

In reality, the single mod, 4hp and 3 agility make them vulnerable enough to keep them in check.

I would even go as far that they are very well designed and balanced because they have a ton of incredibly fair matchups.

1 hour ago, gennataos said:

I don't understand why RZ-2s have to be fixed.

46 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Same. The idea that they are somehow broken requires a lot of support because there's none at the moment.

If they don't have a problem, then Optics doesn't need a nerf, and we can all go home. Well, *stay* home.

I guess my point is that it's a lot harder to find the sweet spot with RZ-2s. Because they fly like arc dodgers, it's going to be a lot trickier to get the balance right. With baseline jousters, it's a lot easier to have a price and balance on the ship which is fair for folks playing with them or against them. RZ-2s seem like they can easily veer into the unplayably bad, or into something which feels like total BS to fly against. There's not a lot of comfortable middle ground.

6 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

RZ2s should go down/stay equal and optics up. They are rather bad on their own, while optic is only used on them and silencers. Fite me

Wait. Did you start this?

2 minutes ago, gennataos said:

Wait. Did you start this?

Hey, I'm just happy that my preemptive strike led to mutual peace and the common agreement that RZ2s are fine where they are...

4 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Hey, I'm just happy that my preemptive strike led to mutual peace and the common agreement that RZ2s are fine where they are...

@svelok, welcome to team RZ-2!

18 minutes ago, gennataos said:

Wait. Did you start this?

More seriously though, I can see how Zizi deserves maybe another point.

More importantly though, a cheaper base cost with more expensive optics woul open options for other lists. Maybe a naked/only heroic pilot could be a thing. Currently it can't.