19 minutes ago, QQMoore said:

Part of what makes Phantoms strong is that the decloak allows them to clear obstacles entirely, keeping their position unpredictable. Could a rule change subtly nerf them by making the decloak use the 1 straight instead of the 2? Side benefit: Decloak rules are simplified becuase the decloak boost/roll is exactly the same as a regular boost/roll for every ship.

I'd question the necessity. The generics and Echo have mostly calmed down to be just another ship. The problem child is Whisper, who has a bunch of contributing factors making her so dominant.

12 hours ago, svelok said:

should the rz1 a-wing be given a barrage rockets slot? discuss

pros: a-wings are cool (at least the ones that shoot forwards), 37pts for a barrage-wing vs 39pts for an x-wing feels like a real decision, the people who complain about video game a-wings spamming missiles or whatever are maybe happy idk

cons: even though I think the inverted range pyramid is interesting last time we did barrage meta it made people mad, jake would maybe need to go up in price a little

Barrage Rockets should be deleted from the game. No upgrade has been worse for the game. Any ship which has had the ability to take Barrage Rockets has been intentionally hobbled, and we'd have been better off without them. We're only just now finally able to use TIE Aggressors.

//

Or rather, Barrage Rockets always should have been a bullseye-only attack, and way cheaper. A cheap, multi-charge, 3-dice version of Proton Rockets, without reroll shenanigans. 3 points for 3 or 4 charges of a 3 dice, range 1-3 bullseye weapon? That feels like a lot nicer of a "fix" missile. Action-easy, position-hard is a really fun design space for missiles. Maybe give it a bit of a perk, to make it feel special compared to Autoblasters. Off the top of my head, I don't know what perk I'd use.

//

That said, 37 points for BRZ1 probably isn't problematic. It's 6 points for better defenses on a TIE Interceptor or Striker, and that doesn't feel too wrong. Mostly, I just think sending everything to an essentially vanilla 3-red attack is wicked boring.

38 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

Mostly, I just think sending everything to an essentially vanilla 3-red attack is wicked boring.

Maybe, yes. But not more boring than not being played at all 🤷🏻‍♂️

10 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Maybe, yes. But not more boring than not being played at all 🤷🏻‍♂️

#barragerocketsdidnothingwrong

#deleteforce

Adjacent thought:

What's the cheapest a Phoenix A-Wing could go? It's basically a Scyk or TIE/fo with better actions.

• Right now, it's +4 points (29). The 2/3/(4) statline is totally playable at 25 points, as filler or swarm, but at +4 for Boost/Vectored, it kinda doesn't work.
• +3 (28) Probably fine. Does it see play? I'm not sure. You'd be able to run 6 Homing Missile A-Wings though, and that'd be kinda cool. Block and lock.
• +2 (27) I wonder if this is correct. With an Ion Missile, it'd be the same price as an Ion Cannon Scyk, or a TIE Interceptor. That feels kinda nice, kinda right. Harder to get that 3rd attack die, but it's a lot more mobile than a Scyk, with a noticeable toughness bump over an Int. Two points for a more mobile TIE/fo might or might not be amazing, but seems not absurd.
• +1 (26) I think this is certainly too low. You can't run a squad of 8, but for that 1 point you've gained a tonne of mobility.

20 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Maybe, yes. But not more boring than not being played at all 🤷🏻‍♂️

The thing which makes A-Wings so cool is that double-talent. A few points cheaper, and Snap/Crack or Predator/Crack seem like legit builds. They're a little bit off right now, but I'd just rather try to lean into what makes them sweet, rather than making them just a dull version of anything else.

1 minute ago, theBitterFig said:

Adjacent thought:

What's the cheapest a Phoenix A-Wing could go? It's basically a Scyk or TIE/fo with better actions.

• Right now, it's +4 points (29). The 2/3/(4) statline is totally playable at 25 points, as filler or swarm, but at +4 for Boost/Vectored, it kinda doesn't work.
• +3 (28) Probably fine. Does it see play? I'm not sure. You'd be able to run 6 Homing Missile A-Wings though, and that'd be kinda cool. Block and lock.
• +2 (27) I wonder if this is correct. With an Ion Missile, it'd be the same price as an Ion Cannon Scyk, or a TIE Interceptor. That feels kinda nice, kinda right. Harder to get that 3rd attack die, but it's a lot more mobile than a Scyk, with a noticeable toughness bump over an Int. Two points for a more mobile TIE/fo might or might not be amazing, but seems not absurd.
• +1 (26) I think this is certainly too low. You can't run a squad of 8, but for that 1 point you've gained a tonne of mobility.

The thing which makes A-Wings so cool is that double-talent. A few points cheaper, and Snap/Crack or Predator/Crack seem like legit builds. They're a little bit off right now, but I'd just rather try to lean into what makes them sweet, rather than making them just a dull version of anything else.

Yeah, but so few well-costed talents, especially in HS right now

13 minutes ago, MasterShake2 said:

Yeah, but so few well-costed talents, especially in HS right now

Kind of a bummer, but if the RZ-1 is essentially an Extended ship, is that terrible?

Meanwhile, at -2 points, a Snap Phoenix is 34 points, just over the breakpoint, but still kinda cheap for a potential double-tapping ship. But it's a skill-and-position based double tap. At -2 points on a Green, you could run 5 Snap/Intimidation A-Wings in HS. That's kinda spicy. Is it good? Shrug. It's interesting, and maybe that's enough.

44 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

Kind of a bummer, but if the RZ-1 is essentially an Extended ship, is that terrible?

Then take it out to make room for rebels to have a reasonable filler option in hyper? Like the...

...uh...

...Z-95?

1 hour ago, theBitterFig said:

Adjacent thought:

What's the cheapest a Phoenix A-Wing could go? It's basically a Scyk or TIE/fo with better actions.

• Right now, it's +4 points (29). The 2/3/(4) statline is totally playable at 25 points, as filler or swarm, but at +4 for Boost/Vectored, it kinda doesn't work.
• +3 (28) Probably fine. Does it see play? I'm not sure. You'd be able to run 6 Homing Missile A-Wings though, and that'd be kinda cool. Block and lock.
• +2 (27) I wonder if this is correct. With an Ion Missile, it'd be the same price as an Ion Cannon Scyk, or a TIE Interceptor. That feels kinda nice, kinda right. Harder to get that 3rd attack die, but it's a lot more mobile than a Scyk, with a noticeable toughness bump over an Int. Two points for a more mobile TIE/fo might or might not be amazing, but seems not absurd.
• +1 (26) I think this is certainly too low. You can't run a squad of 8, but for that 1 point you've gained a tonne of mobility.

The thing which makes A-Wings so cool is that double-talent. A few points cheaper, and Snap/Crack or Predator/Crack seem like legit builds. They're a little bit off right now, but I'd just rather try to lean into what makes them sweet, rather than making them just a dull version of anything else.

A free(for stress) reposition per turn is probably worth at least 3 points. 28 is probably closer to correct than 27. Could still fly 6x /w ion missile.

Single Awings are fine for their cost.

It's an easy test: any game where a list did well and an upgrade had no impact at all (also no threat on positioning) shows that a list can do well with a slightly suboptimal build.

If we're talking 1-2 points then I bet that such a game exists. Which demonstrates that a single Awing is ok.

Massed Awings... I would like them to be a thing, but that's a very different discussion

40 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Single Awings are fine for their cost.

It's an easy test: any game where a list did well and an upgrade had no impact at all (also no threat on positioning) shows that a list can do well with a slightly suboptimal build.

If we're talking 1-2 points then I bet that such a game exists. Which demonstrates that a single Awing is ok.

Massed Awings... I would like them to be a thing, but that's a very different discussion

If the generic A-Wings had a dot next to their names, could you drop the base A-Wing to 25?

6 minutes ago, MasterShake2 said:

If the generic A-Wings had a dot next to their names, could you drop the base A-Wing to 25?

Sure, why not?

My point is that small adjustments have close to no impact as long as the adjusted pilot has a dot. Obvious exception is when a combination of naked or with obligatory upgrade exceeds 200pt.

-4 pt is not a small adjustment. But it would be an ok test.

I think about it this way: take a good list with a dedicated blocker, currently probably a double ace scum list with an m3a. Now move that blocker to another faction. I bet it doesn't matter because the two aces are not as strong.

To me it shows that the 1-5pt of the dedicated blocker are not as important.

2 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

Adjacent thought:

What's the cheapest a Phoenix A-Wing could go? It's basically a Scyk or TIE/fo with better actions.

Wut? It has double amount of blue moves of a Scyk, it has 2 hards blue, it has 3 Sloops instead of 3K, 3 hards, shield instead of hull, access to boost and a linked action. It is a lot better than a Scyk for these 4 points. If you drop Rz1s, even by one point, you need to drop the M3A as well.

32 minutes ago, Managarmr said:

Wut? It has double amount of blue moves of a Scyk, it has 2 hards blue, it has 3 Sloops instead of 3K, 3 hards, shield instead of hull, access to boost and a linked action. It is a lot better than a Scyk for these 4 points. If you drop Rz1s, even by one point, you need to drop the M3A as well.

And the Spacer is about as low as it can safely go cost wise. TPV could use a point shaved off to bring it more in line, but FFG may have noticed a synergy in either Hyper or Extended that I'm missing causing them to hold up at a break point.

AB Sycks are really cool. More of those kind of things please.

55 minutes ago, Managarmr said:

Wut? It has double amount of blue moves of a Scyk, it has 2 hards blue, it has 3 Sloops instead of 3K, 3 hards, shield instead of hull, access to boost and a linked action. It is a lot better than a Scyk for these 4 points. If you drop Rz1s, even by one point, you need to drop the M3A as well.

A ship has to fit with the rest of the available ones. Cross faction comparisons as direct argument for point cost do not make much sense.

42 minutes ago, Managarmr said:

Wut? It has double amount of blue moves of a Scyk, it has 2 hards blue, it has 3 Sloops instead of 3K, 3 hards, shield instead of hull, access to boost and a linked action. It is a lot better than a Scyk for these 4 points. If you drop Rz1s, even by one point, you need to drop the M3A as well.

Linked boost is pretty good. Dial, harder to say; flying RZ-1s, I really miss having a 1-bank (although blue 2-hard is solid gold).

Missing from the comparison: slots. RZ-1 has a talent slot, but in hyperspace that's pretty mediocre. (at least in Extended you can spam Crack Shot). Meanwhile, the hardpoint slot opens up a lot of flexibility because Ion Cannon/Tractor Beam are great support pieces, and Autoblasters ups the threat level of a 2-dice gun considerably.

Context in-faction is also an important factor. @GreenDragoon put it well:

53 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

I think about it this way: take a good list with a dedicated blocker, currently probably a double ace scum list with an m3a. Now move that blocker to another faction. I bet it doesn't matter because the two aces are not as strong.

----------------------------------------------------

2 hours ago, MasterShake2 said:

Yeah, but so few well-costed talents, especially in HS right now

Maybe if Intimidation went to 2 points ... Removing an evade dice is great, less so when you have to give up a shot to do it and you need another ship to capitalize.

27 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

And the Spacer is about as low as it can safely go cost wise. TPV could use a point shaved off to bring it more in line, but FFG may have noticed a synergy in either Hyper or Extended that I'm missing causing them to hold up at a break point.

I think a lot of the "talent generics" suffer from this. TPV at +4 over a spacer makes no sense; same for talent Y-wings at +2, Green Squadron Pilot at +3...

1 hour ago, Managarmr said:

It is a lot better than a Scyk for these 4 points. If you drop Rz1s, even by one point, you need to drop the M3A as well.

Yeah, I just don't think that's even remotely true. RZ-1s have been pretty rare as generics. Scyks are tearing things up, a bit more than the TIE/fo, which has a dial a lot closer to the A-Wing than the M3-A. That 4 point difference is large enough to pretty much shut the RZ-1 out of the game.

On Metawing since January: Spacer 7th, Epsilon 9th, Phoenix 66th.

Also the cannon potential. A Scyk with Tractor or Autoblasters beats the pants off of an A-Wing with nothing. That ought to demonstrate something about how the better mobility of the A-Wing doesn't add *that* much. It's good, and the A-Wing should be at least 2 points more than a Scyk, but rent 4-point difference is too **** high.

2 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

Single Awings are fine for their cost.

It's an easy test: any game where a list did well and an upgrade had no impact at all (also no threat on positioning) shows that a list can do well with a slightly suboptimal build.

If we're talking 1-2 points then I bet that such a game exists. Which demonstrates that a single Awing is ok.

Massed Awings... I would like them to be a thing, but that's a very different discussion

I guess it depends on the definition of massed A-Wings. Skipping over FO/cho, the lists we often see with Scyks or TIE/fo use several but not only that ship. 4 Spacers 2 Fangs, or running 3 or 4 TIE/fo with Aces. 1-2 points probably doesn't matter on a single blocker, but when you're talking about, I dunno, a hypothetical 4A + Falcon, or 3 As and 2 X-Wing aces, or something. Some of those fit right now, but getting an extra upgrade or two, or upgrading a pilot, could make a big difference.

2 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

I guess it depends on the definition of massed A-Wings. Skipping over FO/cho, the lists we often see with Scyks or TIE/fo use several but not only that ship. 4 Spacers 2 Fangs, or running 3 or 4 TIE/fo with Aces.

Is this the difference between swarm and gang and squad? That's even more confusing than the definition of an ace.

5 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

Some of those fit right now, but getting an extra upgrade or two, or upgrading a pilot, could make a big difference.

Sure. But doesn't that likely mean that the other pilot is too expensive, not the Awing?

I mean, I am not opposed to reducing Awing costs, not at all. I just think that "reduce costs of Awings" and "Awings are too expensive" are not the same.

1 minute ago, GreenDragoon said:

Sure. But doesn't that likely mean that the other pilot is too expensive, not the Awing?

Depends. I can totally see it going the other way, depending on the list.

Lando (Nein Nunb) + 4A is 200. Luke/Wedge/3A is 204 points right now, IIRC. I find it a lot easier to say the A-Wing is too expensive, rather than Luke or Wedge or Lando.

But it's not like Luke and Lando have really done exceptionally (30-40th, give or take).

2 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

Massed Awings... I would like them to be a thing, but that's a very different discussion

Purely on theme, I'd rather see 5 rebel A be a powerhouse than 5RZ2s.

Phoenix Squadron was all A-Wings for most of its tour in Rebels.

13 hours ago, Hiemfire said:

Don't have to dominate to be broken.

If it can be broken but dominant, then.....? Just don't like them?

5 minutes ago, gennataos said:

If it can be broken but dominant, then.....? Just don't like them?

I mean, that's what Nantex were, before the tractor nerf.

Personally, I do think RZ-2s have a potential to be more-frustrating-than-their-power, but I don't think it gets anywhere as far as broken.

4 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

I mean, that's what Nantex were, before the tractor nerf.

Personally, I do think RZ-2s have a potential to be more-frustrating-than-their-power, but I don't think it gets anywhere as far as broken.

I totally get being frustrated by them. They're all over the place, virtually impossible to block or even lock down where they'll go, can almost always get a shot, etc. They're a swarm of stinging insects that can't be swatted away.