3 minutes ago, LUZ_TAK said:

Is there really a 20 pt gap between Rebels and Imperial and Scum?

Nah, but there's a 20-point gap between "Rebels people want to play" and "Imperials or Scum people want to play."

I say that with a deliberate lack of judgment.

1 hour ago, LUZ_TAK said:

Is there really a 20 pt gap between Rebels and Imperial and Scum?

...I want to say no, but I don't have a justification as to why...in and of itself, that doesn't speak well of where Rebels are at right now

is there a rebel list that's on par with oli aces? or with boba fenn? this is an open question, but as far as I can tell, there basically just isn't?

just talking about the best 1-3 lists per faction. obviously not every rebel list is 20pts worse than every empire list. and like I said, lowering the power level of the game (nerfs rather than buffs) is intentional - power level at the top feels dramatically too high to me.

31 minutes ago, svelok said:

is there a rebel list that's on par with oli aces? or with boba fenn? this is an open question, but as far as I can tell, there basically just isn't?

I don't understand. We just had the discussion few pages back about the runnerup list. Is it not on par?

I say we don't know, because not enough good players picked it up. But it's a data point that should make us at least a little bit cautious with a 20pt gap.

1 hour ago, GreenDragoon said:

We just had the discussion few pages back about the runnerup list. Is it not on par?

From time with various versions of both archetypes I think its fair to say that crack squad is not completely on par with ace force gang. 20 pt gap seems tough to nail down, its probably more like a 15-16 pt gap? Who knows. Im not sure the specifics matter much. Its more about whatever someone’s preferences are on the direction of change thats needed.

Crack squad has some good but not overwhelmingly favorable matchups against the field. The direct matchup with ace force gang though isn’t its favorite. For sure has options but it doesn’t enter most Ace matchups in “control”. Can get there just doesn't start there and wins via misidentified jousts or mistakes by the trip ace opponent or really strong box/block/flank call setup by the crack squad. Again spam of high init + mobility + passive mods makes it really hard to discuss since played at its best the trip ace list should lean into its reactive mobility and init kills to win most of the time, played badly I would argue its still alarmingly even.

Somewhat separate comment but the ace matchups would be dramatically worse without crackshot. It is a card that I cant emphasize the importance of enough. It is so critical as one of the very few broadly accessible things for various init levels in the game that keep force charge and passive stacks honest about chilling in arc. Allows the work that goes into nailing down a target to pay off when its common to not have that many meaningful repeat shots on target during a game. Things like PT or rear arcs or tractor/ion help a bit to keep pressure on in situations you normally couldn't, but crackshot enables any ship with a talent to pose more of a threat. Regardless of where the point changes end up I am hopeful crackshot only sees an increase if they somewhat aggressively increase the “force” sensitive stuff. Especially since its a card that can only be taken by non force users (besides zoomer Ani or Braylen etc). I would argue that crackshot could even be hyper legal as long as force equivalent aces like Boba/Kylo etc are allowed in with current costs and upgrades.

36 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

From time with various versions of both archetypes I think its fair to say that crack squad is not completely on par with ace force gang. 20 pt gap seems tough to nail down, its probably more like a 15-16 pt gap? Who knows. Im not sure the specifics matter much. Its more about whatever someone’s preferences are on the direction of change thats needed.

Crack squad has some good but not overwhelmingly favorable matchups against the field. The direct matchup with ace force gang though isn’t its favorite. For sure has options but it doesn’t enter most Ace matchups in “control”. Can get there just doesn't start there and wins via misidentified jousts or mistakes by the trip ace opponent or really strong box/block/flank call setup by the crack squad. Again spam of high init + mobility + passive mods makes it really hard to discuss since played at its best the trip ace list should lean into its reactive mobility and init kills to win most of the time, played badly I would argue its still alarmingly even.

Somewhat separate comment but the ace matchups would be dramatically worse without crackshot. It is a card that I cant emphasize the importance of enough. It is so critical as one of the very few broadly accessible things for various init levels in the game that keep force charge and passive stacks honest about chilling in arc. Allows the work that goes into nailing down a target to pay off when its common to not have that many meaningful repeat shots on target during a game. Things like PT or rear arcs or tractor/ion help a bit to keep pressure on in situations you normally couldn't, but crackshot enables any ship with a talent to pose more of a threat. Regardless of where the point changes end up I am hopeful crackshot only sees an increase if they somewhat aggressively increase the “force” sensitive stuff. Especially since its a card that can only be taken by non force users (besides zoomer Ani or Braylen etc). I would argue that crackshot could even be hyper legal as long as force equivalent aces like Boba/Kylo etc are allowed in with current costs and upgrades.

What is the average bid for Scum/Empire? Looking at how many points they can drop from their list and still reasonably expect success is probably a good indicator of how far ahead they are.

12 minutes ago, MasterShake2 said:

What is the average bid for Scum/Empire?

For Boba+ it lands anywhere between 170-190 pts total.

Empire Trip Ace depending on the version can bid into the 180s without losing to much but it doesn't really need to do that and tends to to pack upgrades in to the 190s to improve already reasonable matchups against the field.

Well that article is the coolest thing ever. Thanks MAX !!!!

"In general, the enemy squad should consist of individually weaker ships, but more of them. Few upgrades should be included, so as not to distract from learning...”

1 hour ago, Boom Owl said:

Well that article is the coolest thing ever. Thanks MAX !!!!

"In general, the enemy squad should consist of individually weaker ships, but more of them. Few upgrades should be included, so as not to distract from learning...”

Shots fired at HOTAC. Well, tbh, that sprung out of 1st edition.

Just now, Hoarder of Garlic Bread said:

Shots fired at HOTAC extended

@svelok

But isn't HOTAC pretty much extended on steroids for solo play?

It's good to see some good old salt returning to the boards.

It shows passion, greed and malice; all the things needed to insure the health of our beautiful game.

...tea's on me till 5, after that, pints all around!

Big Mood:

+ +

On 5/28/2020 at 3:35 PM, svelok said:

instead of 200 points, lists are now:

rebels: 195
empire: 175
scum: 175
resistance: 190
first order: 190
republic: 185
separatists: 180

how close is this stupid method to making the top of the meta balanced?

Not balanced at all. But I'd love for Separatists to run at a deficit.

Reb's have plenty o' tools people just don't know how to use'm. They just don't have autopilot lists like the late Rebel Beef.

What about thinking about factions in terms of favored/strongest initiatives?

Empire: 6/5

Scum: 6/5

Rebel: 5/4

Resistance: 5/4

First Order: 5/3?

Republic: 5/2

Separatists: 3/1

1 hour ago, 5050Saint said:

But I'd love for Separatists to run at a deficit.

Whats this mean?

2 hours ago, 5050Saint said:

Not balanced at all. But I'd love for Separatists to run at a deficit.

Reb's have plenty o' tools people just don't know how to use'm. They just don't have autopilot lists like the late Rebel Beef.

Do you actually think every player that plays a faction is just dumb or needs to "git gud"?

Of all the obviously OP meta lists I’ve played against in second edition, rebel beef seemed the least “autopilot” of any of them.

1 hour ago, Kyle Ren said:

Of all the obviously OP meta lists I’ve played against in second edition, rebel beef seemed the least “autopilot” of any of them.

Rebel beef (due to Leia) was able to fundamentally ignore the penalty of taking stress for kturns, which (like force) undermines the fundamental design balance of trading mods for positioning and made flanking the list basically pointless.

In a normal match, getting in the side of a list is a massive advantage. B-Wings have one white turn, X-Wings have two and they're the faster ones, and in general range and position control is much harder left/right than forwards because of how the maneuvers work, the number of them you have available, etc. They can kturn or tallon or rotate, to fix their positioning, but it costs their mods this turn and their dial next turn, giving the flanker a big advantage.

Oops, 2pt Leia. Nevermind, kturn all you like. Oh and Cassian too, just in case we need to do it a little more next turn. Stress? The fundamental mechanic that underlines decision making and rewards/penalizes setting good/bad dials? What's that?

Leia is one of the most fundamentally corrosive cards in X-Wing and the wave 3/4 Leia/Jedi meta was a huge middle finger to dials-based game design; and we knew it at the time, too.

3 hours ago, svelok said:

Rebel beef (due to Leia) was able to fundamentally ignore the penalty of taking stress for kturns, which (like force) undermines the fundamental design balance of trading mods for positioning and made flanking the list basically pointless.

In a normal match, getting in the side of a list is a massive advantage. B-Wings have one white turn, X-Wings have two and they're the faster ones, and in general range and position control is much harder left/right than forwards because of how the maneuvers work, the number of them you have available, etc. They can kturn or tallon or rotate, to fix their positioning, but it costs their mods this turn and their dial next turn, giving the flanker a big advantage.

Oops, 2pt Leia. Nevermind, kturn all you like. Oh and Cassian too, just in case we need to do it a little more next turn. Stress? The fundamental mechanic that underlines decision making and rewards/penalizes setting good/bad dials? What's that?

Leia is one of the most fundamentally corrosive cards in X-Wing and the wave 3/4 Leia/Jedi meta was a huge middle finger to dials-based game design; and we knew it at the time, too.

This list existed side-by-side with the demonstrably more broken quad phantoms, and people barely talk about how bad quad phantoms was when discussing empire, but always bring up this one example when we talk rebels. One of these factions broken the game and the other just had a good cut rate #neverforget

18 minutes ago, MasterShake2 said:

This list existed side-by-side with the demonstrably more broken quad phantoms, and people barely talk about how bad quad phantoms was when discussing empire, but always bring up this one example when we talk rebels. One of these factions broken the game and the other just had a good cut rate #neverforget

Quad Phantom's primary win condition requires breaking the fortressing rules so its not really worth thinking much about beyond how busted lateral pre-movement can be even at low init. The crazy thing is that both Quad 👻 & Rebel 🐄 would not have the greatest matchups against current Trip Force Acce Jouster lists. Rebel Beef even with 2 pt leia was not much more than a Offensive/HP gatecheck on the ace matchup. There were definitely more fragile lower damage output variants of Trip Aces that were not excited to have to deal with Wedge/Braylen/Cassian+1. Things like Tavson+Two ( which is more Double Ace + Bruiser) carved that rebel list up to the point of it being mostly trivial. All it required was that you make sure your Aces list had an alpha strike of some kind built in, something that Empire & Republic still do really well. Its interesting to me that even 2 pt leia high init turret equivalent 4 ship beef wouldn't pose a legitimate matchup threat to current trip ace jousters. If it had 1 more i5+ ship included like low 40s Rebel Fenn to deny rerolls maybe it could.

15 minutes ago, MasterShake2 said:

This list existed side-by-side with the demonstrably more broken quad phantoms, and people barely talk about how bad quad phantoms was when discussing empire, but always bring up this one example when we talk rebels. One of these factions broken the game and the other just had a good cut rate #neverforget

Phantoms were never that popular. They just did ridiculously well whenever they were brought (and won by moving sideways).

Bunker, conversely, was at the time like 15% of the entire meta or something? You could escape Phantoms at league night, but you'd still hit Leia and Jedi.

2 minutes ago, svelok said:

Bunker, conversely, was at the time like 15% of the entire meta or something? You could escape Phantoms at league night, but you'd still hit Leia and Jedi.

Not quite, more like 11% for end of April 2019. In notably the most diverse meta I've ever seen. And where for some odd reason only 9% was scum, only 8% each FO and Separatists. I wish I could rebuild squads with the points at the time because I'm pretty sure that these 3 factions had decent lists that we were not aware of.

5 hours ago, Kyle Ren said:

Of all the obviously OP meta lists I’ve played against in second edition, rebel beef seemed the least “autopilot” of any of them.

Maybe rebel beef wasn't autopilot, but it was simple.

3 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

Quad Phantom's primary win condition requires breaking the fortressing rules so its not really worth thinking much about beyond how busted lateral pre-movement can be even at low init. The crazy thing is that both Quad 👻 & Rebel 🐄 would not have the greatest matchups against current Trip Force Acce Jouster lists. Rebel Beef even with 2 pt leia was not much more than a Offensive/HP gatecheck on the ace matchup. There were definitely more fragile lower damage output variants of Trip Aces that were not excited to have to deal with Wedge/Braylen/Cassian+1. Things like Tavson+Two ( which is more Double Ace + Bruiser) carved that rebel list up to the point of it being mostly trivial. All it required was that you make sure your Aces list had an alpha strike of some kind built in, something that Empire & Republic still do really well. Its interesting to me that even 2 pt leia high init turret equivalent 4 ship beef wouldn't pose a legitimate matchup threat to current trip ace jousters. If it had 1 more i5+ ship included maybe it could.

I always felt like Rebel Beef was, at worst, a getekeeper. You needed an answer for it because it was common and featured a high cut rate, but the events won by Rebel Beef was comparatively low in relation to how common it was. Quad Phantoms not only had a good cut rate, but also consistently good showings at the winner's circle, and that was even after nerfs and when everybody was expecting to see it.

As far as "could either of those pose a serious threat to current aces?", quad phantoms did consistently well even against Squad of Legend. I think current iterations of aces might still win, but it would be an academically interesting match. The challenge with quad phantoms was always that their end position had so many options that, if you guessed wrong, you could end up in a position where repo actions can't save you and any attempt at a flanking maneuver could potentially be met face first by a block. I do agree Rebel beef would just fair worse, though. It's major gimmick was that it's dial was always open and could get double mods 2-3 3x dice shots. Even with the open dial, their options were still pretty limited compared to an average ace and even double modded 3 dice shots are simply not that great against staked force (although it can push some damage through when you get the shots off).

7 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Not quite, more like 11% for end of April 2019. In notably the most diverse meta I've ever seen. And where for some odd reason only 9% was scum, only 8% each FO and Separatists. I wish I could rebuild squads with the points at the time because I'm pretty sure that these 3 factions had decent lists that we were not aware of.

FO has changed dramatically, but still isn't great, so I'm not sold they had a world beater. I do think people were sleeping on CIS and the persistence of droids through some point nerfs shows that the core of CIS was probably more effective than it was given credit for at the time. IDK about Scum, it's very combo-centric as a faction, so it's not just "what is the best costed", but rather "what combines in a compelling way", so who knows, really.