11 hours ago, Kyle Ren said:

I would love threads like that. Sadly it almost always devolves into "here's my opponent's list, what list to I build to hard counter it?"

More like people coming into the thread, not really participating in the actual topic, but instead heaving forth "Your list is so bad, fly that instead, problem solved", and from there it derails into the usual points and list discussions.

19 hours ago, Kyle Ren said:

For the record, I also find listbuilding talk very tiresome... people love thunking up new lists and acting like they're a genius for putting it together but we assume some dev and then some playtester put two and two together before right? Also I find that the typical player spends way more time building lists than actually playing the game, which feels backwards to me.

Real life tends to steal X-wing time. And in Covid19 times even less X-wing play...

Talking about points and typing fast responses while commuting or having downtime in work is a surrogate for actual playing for many. But having an actual tactics discussions requires a lot of text and visualisation, so much higher threshold to put up.

3 hours ago, gennataos said:

I don't really doubt they try to at least have a little bit of a finger on the pulse of the community. I just haven't seen any reason to believe the community has as much of an impact as some would like to believe.

Which is a good thing, seeing what sometimes is proposed on the forums.

On 5/21/2020 at 6:23 AM, funwok said:

It kinda has to be. X-Wing is a super visual game and without proper framework, it is very hard to talk about specific decision making trees and details. That's why I like to read blogs with lots of colourful pictures. 😉

Or why the Oli P files are so great, when he talks over his recorded games.

@GreenDragoon might have a different experience but I can definitely say that on my own very low key blog, my detailed match reviews where I dig into decision making, strategy, etc., generally bring in maybe 1/10th at most of what posts like "here are some silly Seasoned Navigator builds" or "which TIE Striker pilot matches your personality" or "power ranking the dice symbols: featuring 5 reasons why the crit symbol is s-tier" or similar mass-appeal posts bring in. They just don't seem to stir up much interest (and completely failed at drumming up discussion).

Twitch chat is sort of telling too. People don't really break down moves or tactics, really. They ooh and aah at dice results, make predictions of upcoming maneuvers/outcomes (with wildly varying levels of accuracy), and occasionally soapbox about the game. Often it feels like many of the viewers active in chat don't seem to really understand the game we're all playing (or at least they understand it very differently than I do, at the risk of sounding like an arrogant jerk) and they don't seem particularly interested in changing that understanding.

I'm being super cynical, but I think the X-wing masses like listbuilding articles, beginner-level tactics/strategy stuff, and buying guides. Maybe a tournament rundown if there are some nice big dice rolls to mention. Printed higher level strategy or deeper analysis is of fairly niche appeal and almost uniformly fails to generate the sort of spirited, productive discussion that the writers hope for.

EDIT: To be clear, I'm not saying people shouldn't enjoy the fun dice results on Twitch or that everyone needs to enjoy watching X-Wing games the way *I* enjoy watching X-Wing games. DWYWM! Just sometimes frustrated that X-Wing Twitch chat consistently is what it is. But certainly I know that no Twitch chat anywhere will ever be a home to deep, insightful discourse! So maybe just disregard my elitist Twitch chat takes.

Incidentally, the match reviews take way longer to write up than the pithy clickbait stuff. But even the posts with semi-reasonable traction fail miserably at drawing people to the match reviews (which are the posts I really care about).

(Please don't ridicule my tiny readership count)

Which of these engages best describes you?

Row # + Slide #

5 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

Which of these engages best describes you?

Are we Green or Red?

6 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

Are we Green or Red?

Search your feelings, you know who you are.

1 hour ago, DoubleDown11 said:

might have a different experience but I can definitely say that on my own very low key blog, my detailed match reviews where I dig into decision making, strategy, etc., generally bring in maybe 1/10th at most of what posts like "here are some silly Seasoned Navigator builds" or "which TIE Striker pilot matches your personality" or "power ranking the dice symbols: featuring 5 reasons why the crit symbol is s-tier" or similar mass-appeal posts bring in. They just don't seem to stir up much interest (and completely failed at drumming up discussion).

Very similar.

I mainly write (wrote?) batreps, and they are largely missing from this toplist. The two SystemOpens and another tournament are the big exceptions. Which is funny because vassal reviews are imo much better: more accurate, able to actually check alternative moves or my luck, no gaps, etc.

But as we discussed elsewhere @DoubleDown11, it's fine as long as you personally draw something from it. Definitely made me more cynical though

90% of my games with Kylo+dudes are row 1 slide 2 or row 2 slide 2

47 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

Which of these engages best describes you?

Row # + Slide #

I think I try to be red in the bottom row third over, but I end up green in the bottom right corner far too often.

Red 3, 2

Row 1, slide 4, red.

The number of opponents that still go for Row 2, slide 1 in response can be slightly baffling.

Like, I'm not even in that corner.

15 hours ago, DoubleDown11 said:

Twitch chat is sort of telling too. People don't really break down moves or tactics, really. They ooh and aah at dice results, make predictions of upcoming maneuvers/outcomes (with wildly varying levels of accuracy), and occasionally soapbox about the game. Often it feels like many of the viewers active in chat don't seem to really understand the game we're all playing (or at least they understand it very differently than I do, at the risk of sounding like an arrogant jerk) and they don't seem particularly interested in changing that understanding.

EDIT: To be clear, I'm not saying people shouldn't enjoy the fun dice results on Twitch or that everyone needs to enjoy watching X-Wing games the way *I* enjoy watching X-Wing games. DWYWM! Just sometimes frustrated that X-Wing Twitch chat consistently is what it is. But certainly I know that no Twitch chat anywhere will ever be a home to deep, insightful discourse! So maybe just disregard my elitist Twitch chat takes.

twitch chat is like the spectator crowd of sportsball though - I think if you expect deep analysis and thoughtful discussion about maneuvers in twitch, then your expectations are vastly missing the wide open goal.

Know your audience and know your stage 😉

Take me for example, I snort green's batreps like they are legally available recreational drugs - but you gonna bet I am spamming emotes and #rigged in twitch at the opportune time after rolling dice. It's just not the environment to discuss the viability of a four finger opening pivoting on the 2.5x3 obstacle you placed in setup to control the centre field or similar.

Look at all you honorless cowards not picking row 2 slide 1

Sorry missed one of the available options:

3 hours ago, Boom Owl said:

Sorry missed one of the available options:

Two opponents who have heard "when both players joust, one of them is wrong" one too many times. Can't be wrong if you don't engage!

13 hours ago, Boom Owl said:

Sorry missed one of the available options:

That must be for the Quad Starviper lists.

Ok, I have an idea for the community, as to stop arguing points value in the vacuum.

In Chess or Go (or Weiki/Baduk) games, is very common to have a board situation presented with a board picture and a question: “Black to move and win” or “White to move and live”, etc. They are very small and encapsulated game situations, but that can be fun and entertaining to think about.

So, how do we do it with X-Wing?

Next time you are playing the game, either on your dining table or on FlyCasual/TTS/Vassal, and you come to an interesting decision or pivotal moment in the game, like either a setting a dial, or choosing a target, or whatever, take a zenithal picture or screenshot and post it in a thread (maybe battlerep subforum?). Make sure the full game situation is visible: ships involved, current health, etc. In Fly casual this is so very easy because you switch to 2D view, zoom to frame the scenario and have all the ships info visible.

Then, post your picture / screenshot and your question, so the community can give their input and debate. Examples:

• “Should I go for K-Turn or hard right 2 on the Defender?”
• “Should I break formation with the Interceptor to harass/finish the X-wing, or keep formation to focus fire against the Falcon?”
• "Would this be a good time to drop a mine?"
• “Should I shoot the unfocused enemy at R2, or try my luck at focused enemy at R1?” This would normally have a mathematically single correct answer, but now you see it in a gameplay situation, so there are other variables in play: maybe one of those ships can regenerate, or take a killing shot at the next initiative step, so make sense to choose the “mathematically worst” option.

I think it is a very simple way to talk about the game, the actual game, and not list building (as long as the discussion doesn’t go “why are you flying X instead of Y?”). You can even do a poll if you wish so people can vote on best course of action.

Shall we give it a try? As a rookie player, I would certainly enjoy more this kind of threads than another “soontir points analysis”.

Ryan Farmer did that on the Fly Better Facebook page for a while with "here's a board state at time, what actions do you take?" type questions. The "at time" questions are interesting, because there always is a right answer that maximizes your chance to win.

Back in 1e, a group of Iceland guys sent out board states to a lot of "name" players and had us comment on what we thought the right moves would be. We always disagreed with each other!

They're always fun thought exercises, but it's hard to come up with good ones. And it's hard to prove what the best answer is.

@LUZ_TAK

Another thing that works real well is just to discuss in game strategy vs specific Pilots/Ships/Lists from multiple archetypes perspective. Pretty simple to have a dialogue on here with minimal effort on visuals etc. Done that extensively in the past here on the forums but it tends to happen less as the puzzles become more of the same of things that have been detailed out in previous metas.

Either way In Game Counter Strat Matchup Breakdowns are nice because they put everything in a broader in game context rather than a specific one off decision tree. As an example, just breaking down ways to make the matchup against Vader/Whisper/GI less bad for a Swarm, Beef, Aces moving First, Ace Mini Swarm, etc. across various factions can be instructive.

Break it down into:

• Things It Do (Engage, Win Con, Disengage, Off/Def Profile, Mobility, Control, etc. )
• Counter Strategy Win Condition
• Target Priority
• Typical Turns 0-3 (visuals)
• 1st Engage (visuals)
• 1st Engage +1 Turn (visuals)
• Things Not to Do
• Uninteresting List Building Strategy

The "answers" for this type of counter strategy are often similar within archetypes with slight variations where you have to read/understand words on cards.

On 5/25/2020 at 11:56 AM, pheaver said:

Ryan Farmer did that on the Fly Better Facebook page for a while with "here's a board state at time, what actions do you take?" type questions. The "at time" questions

They're always fun thought exercises, but it's hard to come up with good ones. And it's hard to prove what the best answer is.

As for the first sentence of your paragraph, it would we great if someone built the execsises in purpose; I would say that simply paying attention to the games you are playing will deliver interesting problems.

As for the second sentence: there is no need to agree or proove the best. Simply discuss it and learn from it. The OP could eventually post what he did in the game and how it went.

1 minute ago, Boom Owl said:

@LUZ_TAK

Another thing that works real well is just to discuss in game strategy vs specific Pilots/Ships/Lists from multiple archetypes perspective. Pretty simple to have a dialogue on here with minimal effort on visuals etc.

.

As long as it does not devolve into listbuilding...

16 minutes ago, LUZ_TAK said:

As long as it does not devolve into listbuilding...

Yea thats sorta not something that cant be controlled and is up to the folks who reply. Previous threads tend to have at least a couple responses that are more about in game decisions combined with the minimum necessary list building context.

Give it a try though.

Start a thread about a matchup your interested in mitigating, detail out the categories I listed with a couple visuals, be specific about which archetypes perspective your discussing it from etc.. Doesn't have to be correct just has to be in game focused to get the types of discussions you want going. Also be sure to mention that you recognize XYZ archetype loses >60% of the time vs the thing but your just trying to improve that win/loss % a bit, not completely solve it. Typically solving it beyond mitigation requires swapping pieces and factions until you have the best highest init most mobile jousting list (lead to the Poe Thread 🙂). Also throw in a random starwars gif or two to get the folks who don't read more engaged.

I kind of hate promoting my blog but since a few people in this thread seem to have the appetite that I mostly don't see elsewhere for this kind of content, here's another breakdown of a game I played this weekend: http://xwingontherocks.blogspot.com/2020/05/match-review-xvt-top-4-oli-aces-vs-jedi.html

I'm planning on doing another one in the next few days (XVT S7: Separatist Swarm vs. FO Salad) as well.

I hope these are useful. I think they are for me, at least? It's nice taking an objective, forensic look at these games after a few days have passed, and writing them out in detail is basically the only way I can force myself to really analyze it and not just gloss through and wince at the big plays.

14 minutes ago, DoubleDown11 said:

I kind of hate promoting my blog but

I think you should promote it a bit more. Just my 2 cents

Hmm, Proud Trad Optic Midnight hauls a lot of value at 48 pt, which is a rarity for Midnight builds. Now if only Midnight and Ember swapped pilot abilities...

"Midnight" (42)
Proud Tradition (2)
Advanced Optics (4)

Ship total: 48 Half Points: 24 Threshold: 2

"Holo" (54)
Proud Tradition (2)

Ship total: 56 Half Points: 28 Threshold: 2

Kylo Ren (76)
Instinctive Aim (1)
Advanced Optics (4)
Proton Torpedoes (13)

Ship total: 94 Half Points: 47 Threshold: 3


Total: 198

View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0: https://raithos.github.io/?f=First Order&d=v8ZsZ200Z233X319W186WY382X319WWWY236X73W186W136W&sn=New Squadron&obs=

I mean, just 1 game of ******* around with this for the lolz has me wondering what kind of neato HS meta developments we could have had if the online scene were as strong as the IRL one such that the plague wouldn't end Hyperspace season.

It doesn't hit as hard as that Kylo + Vonreg/Blackout (to flavor) + SL Muse nor is it as survivable as Kylo 2BA, but the ever-giving gift of Proud Trad allows various blends to taste.