Id like to dig into the consistent comments (not necessarily made here) that X-Wing is less fun when the lists involved are “simpler” from an upgrade point if view. Frequently people say “Without lots of upgrades X-Wing is just straight jousting and rolling dice”. Probably aware by now that I disagree with this and find that sentiment to be very different from my experience playing the game.

To move the conversation forward though lets start breaking down matchups. Pick any you want to make any argument you want ( ie you can ignore the ones listed below and discuss your own ).

To give an example of matchups:

Poe R4 + 5 Fireballs vs Kylo SF SF SF Rivas

5X vs 8 FO

Does the below matchup look more or less interesting to you than the above two?

Vader Precog PS AB + Soontir Pred + GI

vs

Anakin 7B R2 + Obi Sense CLT + Plo CLT

Which matchup do you think involves more in game strategy? Which game rewards the player who makes the least amount of decisions? Which game can a player influence more with their own good decision making? Which game can you improve your win % more by being better at the game than your opponent? Does being “better” have a very different definition depending on the game and how the cards influence the “need” to make decisions? Are the majority of decisions happening in different phases of the game depending on the matchup?

I picked these examples at random. If you would prefer to discuss other list matchups with lots of upgrades vs few upgrades that better support your own narratives feel free. I picked one with matching bids and Sense to try and be fair and balanced since I am ultra biased against Fort Upgrade.

22 hours ago, Boom Owl said:

Trip Ace Jousters have 100% owned 2.0 since it was introduced, for the record I consider Boba/Fenn a Trip Ace list to. The only exception was Sun Fac with Ensnare.

I wont even listen to arguments that CIS Swarm has been near that archetypes power level. It hasnt, its only good because players are bad.

I'm jumping in with GreenDragoon. I want to listen to your points, but then you make strongly hyperbolic statements like this that throw me off. Denying CIS Swarms being strong is a weird take, but also not acknowledging the miserable existence of the Rebel Beef/Quad Phantom meta that reigned for several months, several System Opens, and far too many Hyperspace Trials (for Beef) is another weird take. Those lists had 4 ships, 4 or less upgrades, and no Aces (an I6 in Wedge, but no Ace).

To your argument against many upgrades on 3 ship high Init lists, let's dissect the top 16 at Worlds 2019. Unless you think 5 or 6 upgrades is too many, Worlds does not indicate a problem. The lists with the most upgrades were 2 Resistance 5 ships lists packing in 12 upgrades. Crack Shot and Heroic were the two most common upgrades at 14 and 9 copies taken respectively. Simply increasing the cost of Crack Shot would greatly reduce the amount of upgrades taken.

I separated between 3 ship list or greater and separated between lists with 2 or more Init 5 or 6s. Separating the single I5 or 6 lists was because those lists only had Wedge or Talli which having only of those doesn't really constitute an ace list.

Total upgrades: 97 (92 not counting 0 point upgrades: Jamming Beam, S-foils, Pivot Wing)

Average upgrades per list: 6.0625 (5.75 not counting 0 point upgrades)

Average ships in a list size: 4.0625 (with only one droid swarm to skew the average)

Lists with 3 or fewer ships: 7

Average upgrades for lists with 3 ships or fewer: 6 (or 5.86 not counting 0 point upgrades)

Lists with 4 ships or more: 9

Average upgrades for lists with 4 ships or more: 6.111 (5.666 not counting 0 point upgrades)

Lists with more than one Init 5 or 6: 7

Average upgrades in a list with more than one Init 5 or 6: 6 (5.86 not counting 0 point upgrades)

Lists 1 or less Init 5 or 6: 9

Average upgrades in a list without an Init 5 or 6: 6.111 (5.86 not counting 0 point upgrades)

Ships with more than one upgrade: 32 (28 not counting 0 point upgrades)

I5 or above with more than one upgrade: 15 (13 not counting 0 point upgrades)

I4 or less with more than one upgrade: 17 (15 not counting 0 point upgrades)

Percentage of ships with more than one upgrade: 33.6%

Judging by the amount of ships with 1 or less upgrades, it doesn't look like combo-winging upgrades is the problem. If you don't count Crack Shot, Heroic, or 0 points upgrades, the ships with multiple upgrades drops drastically. A-wings always take 2 or more upgrades, Delta 7s are the next greatest culprit as they always take a config.

With all this said, I am in favor of less 3 ship Ace lists with multiple strong combo-wing upgrades and a 10 point plus bid already, but what you are posting would not win me to the cause if I wasn't already there.

46 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

Id like to dig into the consistent comments (not necessarily made here) that X-Wing is less fun when the lists involved are “simpler” from an upgrade point if view. Frequently people say “Without lots of upgrades X-Wing is just straight jousting and rolling dice”. Probably aware by now that I disagree with this and find that sentiment to be very different from my experience playing the game.

[...]

I picked these examples at random. If you would prefer to discuss other list matchups with lots of upgrades vs few upgrades that better support your own narratives feel free. I picked one with matching bids and Sense to try and be fair and balanced since I am ultra biased against Fort Upgrade.

My thing is that the culprit isn't upgrades, at least not inherently.

Passive Sensors is a great example. To be sure, they're total BS on Vader, and the kind of boost triple ace doesn't need.

On a TIE/sf with some missiles, it's roughly equivalent to Gunner. Totally fair, non-bull****. It enables a Gunboat to carry torpedoes and be playable. Not absurd, but playable, and the people love their gunboats. On a B-Wing with S-Foils and a cannon, probably OK, but it is kind of a lot of firepower. However, almost surely less BS than any Soontir, even a 0-upgrade Soontir, despite being a 3-upgrade B-Wing.

If you want to go after BS, that's a great goal, I'm with you. We're both Fort Hyperspace. But if you want to go after upgrades-qua-upgrades, and you're missing the mark and you've lost me.

I will use less hyperbole for at least the next 1000 pages.

For further context I do think 4-6 upgrades is an outrageous number for a Trip Ace List to have, even at 200 pts.

1 minute ago, Boom Owl said:

I will use less hyperbole for at least the next 1000 pages.

I really wish you would. You've long been a great voice on the forums.

5 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

For further context I do think 4-6 upgrades is an outrageous number for a Trip Ace List to have, even at 200 pts.

First...why do you think that?

Second, what's the end goal? Just to chat about it? I've always been a bit baffled why people start talking design, as if they have an influence on that design. Maybe they do? Or maybe they just want to talk about "What if...?" scenarios?

16 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

I will use less hyperbole for at least the next 1000 pages.

There are times when hyperbole gets in the way of great points.

There are other times hyperbole is wicked funny, so don't give it up entirely.

18 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

For further context I do think 4-6 upgrades is an outrageous number for a Trip Ace List to have, even at 200 pts.

I guess in the end, I'll never think 4-6 upgrades is more of an issue than Trip Ace. Maybe they can't always be separated, but still.

1 hour ago, Boom Owl said:

I picked these examples at random. If you would prefer to discuss other list matchups with lots of upgrades vs few upgrades that better support your own narratives feel free. I picked one with matching bids and Sense to try and be fair and balanced since I am ultra biased against Fort Upgrade.

I disagree with that approach. It makes sense for you if you want to prove a point. But those are not "lots of upgrades vs few upgrades", it's "nearly broken upgrade combinations vs few upgrades".

Take a ro8 game from SpaceJam:

Rear Admiral Chiraneau + Darth Vader + Admiral Sloane + 0-0-0 + BT-1 + Hull Upgrade + Dauntless; 4x Academy Pilot
vs
Torkil Mux + Seismic Charges + Moldy Crow
Captain Seevor + Snap Shot
Torani Kulda + Snap Shot + R5-TK
Dalan Oberos + Contraband Cybernetics

That counts as lots of upgrades (6 per 4 ships, 6 per 5 ships), and is way more interesting than 5 X vs 8 FO.

e: the scum player in ro16 played against this:

Anakin Skywalker + Passive Sensors + Proton Torpedoes
Padmé Amidala
Luminara Unduli + Calibrated Laser Targeting
"Wolffe"

Maybe lots of upgrades (3 per 4 ships, so I would see it as few), clearly a cool game and list.

36 minutes ago, gennataos said:

I really wish you would. You've long been a great voice on the forums.

First...why do you think that?

Second, what's the end goal? Just to chat about it? I've always been a bit baffled why people start talking design, as if they have an influence on that design. Maybe they do? Or maybe they just want to talk about "What if...?" scenarios?

Mostly was kicking the bee hive a bit about a topic I was interested in. No developer is reading this or other threads, so its definitely not an attempt to influence design. Its just a topic 🙂 for discussion.

Upgrades seem generally to cheap or to accessible across the board. Thats my opinion.

Consensus is "shut up upgrades are fine".

I'll move on to other topics soon.

10 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

That counts as lots of upgrades (6 per 4 ships, 6 per 5 ships), and is way more interesting than 5 X vs 8 FO.

So just to move things forward slightly, why do players find 5x vs 8 FO type games boring?

9 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

Mostly was kicking the bee hive a bit about a topic I was interested in. No developer is reading this or other threads, so its definitely not an attempt to influence design. Its just a topic 🙂 for discussion.

Upgrades seem generally to cheap or to accessible across the board. Thats my opinion.

Consensus is "shut up upgrades are fine".

I'll move on to other topics soon.

Damnit, now I feel bad. 😞

2 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

So just to move things forward slightly, why do players find 5x vs 8 FO type games boring?

I don't find that boring. I'd find it boring to just keep playing those similar match-ups all of the time, though.

24 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

So just to move things forward slightly, why do players find 5x vs 8 FO type games boring?

It's not boring, it's less interesting.

The game is decided earlier. Turn zero and first maneuvers to shape the first engagement have a huge influence. That is a cool thing, I agree! There is more strategy involved. But there is also less opportunity to react to surprises. The games are also a bit more frustrating because dice gain a comparatively larger impact. It is unfair if the underdog wins, and a 5x vs 8FO game has often a clear underdog after the first round of shots (or even before).

Apparently early Armada was like this, that the game was largely decided after setting up and the next 4 hours were to confirm it. I heard it has changed a lot for the better. But the takeaway is that we* don't want a purely strategical game. The tactics should matter, they are fun.

e: I, and it seems like the same is true for a lot of Armada and X-Wing players

1 minute ago, GreenDragoon said:

But the takeaway is that we don't want a purely strategical game. The tactics should matter, they are fun.

I agree, but careful with your pronoun usage! 😉

For me, aside from loaded Rey because fanboi, I don't think I care for using lots of upgrades. Particularly since the last update, I think I'm squarely in the AceGangGangGang camp. But I don't want to face that same sort of thing I'm playing all that much, I like the surprises and the puzzle of an opposing list (to a point).

re: to a point - Sometimes there's no puzzle to figure out. It's not rare to know what a given popular ship is going to do, nor is it rare to know there's little to nothing I can do about it.

Also, I think Fang Fenn Rau is the most fairly pointed, best designed risk/reward ace in the game. He also might be broken as **** if he had a mod slot (to Boom's point).

35 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

So just to move things forward slightly, why do players find 5x vs 8 FO type games boring?

Because I can't speculate on how to do better while I'm on a coffee break at work. I'm no expert chess player, I can't visualize board states, so there's nothing to do with the lists, except get reps in.

Now, 4 T70 is a list you can really think about. What pilots, what droids, what tech, what talent. Are any of the canons or missiles useful? Would I rather have Outmanevuer Reds, to get passive mods when I can line it up, or Heroic/Optics Reds to push about the same damage as active Outmaneuver when I can spend my focus offensively, but restrict my maneuvers to non-reds, and force myself to take Focus actions. Would Poe + XXX be better than four generics, or maybe go for Jess + Bastian + XX? There are positioning implications here, to be sure, but if I'm only thinking about the most basic "group or spread out," I can kinda handle that.

I mean, on-table X-Wing is only a part of the game, and given the state of the world, one I'm not really doing a lot of these days anyhow.

49 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

No developer is reading this or other threads

let's hedge that - max if you're reading this we owe you a lot of drinks

like a lot of drinks, no one should be subject to our insanity

5 minutes ago, Brunas said:

let's hedge that - max if you're reading this we owe you a lot of drinks

like a lot of drinks, no one should be subject to our insanity

Max, stop reading immediately.

Also

Hi Max.

Max, make Delta config R2(-D2) Anakin cheaper please.

A Revenge of the Sith fanboy.

1 hour ago, Boom Owl said:

Mostly was kicking the bee hive a bit about a topic I was interested in. No developer is reading this or other threads, so its definitely not an attempt to influence design. Its just a topic 🙂 for discussion.

Upgrades seem generally to cheap or to accessible across the board. Thats my opinion.

Consensus is "shut up upgrades are fine".

I hope I didn't come off too "shut up upgrades are fine". I do appreciate kicking the hive, but I think the "upgrades seem too cheap or too accessible" would have been a better avenue to pursue rather than focusing on the amount of upgrades.

I will jump on the bandwagon from the other thread that I do think a "limit to three upgrades in a list" league would be fun and entertaining. There would need to be some clarification as to what configs count as upgrades for the league though.

1 hour ago, Boom Owl said:

So just to move things forward slightly, why do players find 5x vs 8 FO type games boring?

I know I don't, but I know that if everything becomes something similar to that, I will get bored. Like when everything was 4 Phantoms or Rebel Beef, I got bored. The current hyperspace trend of CIS Swarm or Boba + a friend has got me bored, as well. I want diversity mostly. I want some swarms, some aces, some salad, some scum jank, etc.

1 hour ago, theBitterFig said:

Would Poe + XXX be better than four generics

Answer is yes.

27 minutes ago, gennataos said:

Answer is yes.

But if Poe always dies, doesn't it just reduce to 3 generics anyhow?

2 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

But if Poe always dies, doesn't it just reduce to 3 generics anyhow?

Too soon!

Just now, theBitterFig said:

But if Poe always dies, doesn't it just reduce to 3 generics anyhow?

Poe hasn't died in like two months...!

Seriously, though, yeah, but I don't know how that says anything. Like, what if he doesn't die?

Aye, I'm just being a such-and-such. Poe XXX is sweet (even if I'm extra garbage with Poe).

7 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

Aye, I'm just being a such-and-such. Poe XXX is sweet (even if I'm extra garbage with Poe).

Something which I think is cool about PoeXXX is I feel you can trade him if it's a good trade, which isn't something I've been able to do comfortably with other Poe lists. Rookies can 100% close out games if Poe is traded well.

Also, I think it's...odd...that FennFangFangFang is such a thing, but PoeXXX isn't.

15 minutes ago, gennataos said:

Also, I think it's...odd...that FennFangFangFang is such a thing, but PoeXXX isn't.

Passive mods.

But yeah, more folks should fly PoeXXX.