42 minutes ago, svelok said:

a lot of people don't seem to get that it's not just about competitive play

hyperspace is the only casual format I want to play, too

Why do casual games matter in this discussion? You can organize all the casual games however you want.

The only good reason why format discussions are a thing are FFG OP supported events. They should be split relatively evenly, and arguably tilted towards the more balanced and thus more competitively interesting format.

49 minutes ago, Cuz05 said:

There are only so many variations of ' dial 2 hard, throw 3 red dice, throw 3 green dice'.

but are those 2 hards blue?

4 minutes ago, Kyle Ren said:

but are those 2 hards blue?

Only in EZ mode 😄

7 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

It's not about list building, it's about embracing the broken stuff. Why do people cheat in single player games? Because sometimes it's just fun to play with something OP. As long as there is an actual competitive format, the ridiculous things in extended can have their spot. A dead hyperspace would mean a dead competitive X-Wing, and I'm not willing to let it go.

You sound as if everyone playing&enjoying extended would play high inititative aces when everyone else is miserable while palying?! My extended squads are half aces (FO/Imps) and half not (Rey, Sloaneswarm). All fun to play for an afternoon or day, definitely not fun in a highly competitive event.

Why don't we all take a break from the doom&gloom.

Sameteam.

3 hours ago, Boom Owl said:

Maybe the answer is to stop talking about hyper and just start asking for extremely expensive upgrades again?

Maybe that's indirectly the way to save Hyperspace.

Accept the format, you HS deniers, or Soontir will cost 70 points.

Folks who love wombo-combo-wing should welcome Hyperspace as the main format, since otherwise FFG will* just make everything too expensive to play in any format.

* Will they won't they will they won't they won't they join the dance?

5 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

Accept the format, you HS deniers, or Soontir will cost 70 points.

I'm not convinced that Soontir shouldn't cost about that, anyway.

5 hours ago, Kyle Ren said:

as a supernatural reflexes player I have to say it's among the worst game mechanics I've ever seen and needs to be priced out of existence. it is still very playable on i5 and i6 ships and that's bad.

also force in general is a garbage game mechanic. I'm not talking game balance, I'm just talking game design. there's no risk/reward, it's just always on and that's boring.

hyperspace has plenty of force users too I guess so that's independent of the format argument, but nonetheless boom is right that if a banlist doesn't exist (i.e. we're playing extended) some stuff needs to be priced out of existence.

Supernat player here, too. We need hyperspace to continue. You 'can' Supernat in HS, but it's connected to coordinate or autothrusting off a coordinate. This is so balanced, as it reacts only to certain initiatives, can be blocked, can be destroyed and overall costs more without bloating Mr Pointfortress that likes being expensive. Some cards aren't going to be costed out and instead should be rotated out: see Luke gunner, Anakin, R2Dcrew, R2 on 7b's, Rexler, etc.

I know I'm guilty of flying Supernat to get to Minnesota and of flying it there like a cancer. I also know that I'm guilty of trying to get better with Kylo + Vonreg + bid. I think that says more of the addiction of single player mechanics of wacky firework tricks than of the invalidity of my opinion.

Why rotate and push HS instead of costing more aggressively? We also play casual with B tier lists and want the wacky cards, but in mediocre setups, for the lols. Also, pushing generics and downplaying high init means that you are creating a hunting ground for the high inits with the passive mods for the swarms, the point fortressing to kill and run, and the mobility to scramble the swarm in the rocks and hide behind clouds. Sometimes, the hospital accidentally creates Superbugs, germicidal-resistant bacteria. The balance in X Wing rn is good, but far from perfect. But getting greedy with points will push the Superbug problem further. Instead of relying on Natural Selection and changing the environment via the intricate point system, Hyperspace intervenes and blocks a lot of problems out of existence. Points are needed--as are antibacterial disinfectant--but are not sufficient and must be used properly.

Roger Roger, arc dodger, board clogger, or chonky dice modder, I'm looking forward to the innovations in extended for the European Space Jam. I'm seeing a lot of interesting things on Vassal.

I don't post a lot here, but I'm not sure why because of a few tournaments run by a few organizers online we believe the masses overwhelmingly want Extended (or particularly care either way; I know I don't.) Heck, Fly Better ran a poll today that's currently at 217-147 in favor of Hyperspace as the preferred format. Is that particularly representative of the community at large? Eh, maybe not. But its more data on it than any of the posts in this discussion.

Edit: now at 242-165.

10 hours ago, dsul413 said:

242-165

Prior polls I have run with similar #s ended up about 50/50. There is no doubt that there are alot of players who prefer hyperspace. I am sure that will eventually translate into a few more online hyperspace tournaments & leagues.

On a related topic: https://strawpoll.com/xsdw4br3

Would X-Wing be a better game if there was an upgrade limit on lists?

As an arbitrary example no list could have more than 3 upgrades regardless of the number of ships. And no ship could have more than 1 of those 3 upgrades.

I played my first TTS game the other day and Poe didn't die! The streak continues!

(Although I thought he did, because apparently all it takes is a month or two for me to forget that T-70s have four hull. It's not like 95% of my games with Resistance have included a T-70.)

2 hours ago, Boom Owl said:

On a related topic: https://strawpoll.com/xsdw4br3

Would X-Wing be a better game if there was an upgrade limit on lists?

As an arbitrary example no list could have more than 3 upgrades regardless of the number of ships. And no ship could have more than 1 of those 3 upgrades.

Mostly no. More discussion in the other thread, but I think there are simply too many ships designed to have at least a few upgrades. Mostly, these are secondary weapons.

Avoiding Mumbo-Jumbo-Combo-Wingo isn't a bad goal, but I think this hurts a lot of fair and interesting stuff in the process.

So a few months after Hotshots and Aces, it appears that only two pilots really entered the meta in a significant way (Nom Lumb and Zizi Tlo), with some visibility from a few others like Ronith Blario, Fifth Brother, and Lt. LeHuse, and complete non-existence from a few (Vagabond, G4R GOR, Paige, etc.)

With the benefit of a few months (strange as they've been):

• What were your biggest surprises (positive or negative) from the Hotshots pilots and their impact on the meta?
• Which pilots do you never see being a major presence (barring a wild points adjustment)?
• Who do you think people are sleeping on, or put another way, who do you anticipate to emerge as a significant role player in the meta?

For me, I think Leia Organa seems really strong, and I wonder if its her presence in a weaker faction that's keeping her down, but she's the one pilot that we're not seeing now that I'm most surprised about. Rush and Morna Kee I think also have good potential; I was pretty skeptical on Morna (she struck me as a poor man's RAC) but in practice she's actually surprisingly effective, although I'm not sold on the optimal list to put her in. I've heard people argue that G4R-GOR is a scary piece as well but I can't buy it.

13 minutes ago, DoubleDown11 said:

So a few months after Hotshots and Aces, it appears that only two pilots really entered the meta in a significant way (Nom Lumb and Zizi Tlo), with some visibility from a few others like Ronith Blario, Fifth Brother, and Lt. LeHuse, and complete non-existence from a few (Vagabond, G4R GOR, Paige, etc.)

With the benefit of a few months (strange as they've been):

• What were your biggest surprises (positive or negative) from the Hotshots pilots and their impact on the meta?
• Which pilots do you never see being a major presence (barring a wild points adjustment)?
• Who do you think people are sleeping on, or put another way, who do you anticipate to emerge as a significant role player in the meta?

For me, I think Leia Organa seems really strong, and I wonder if its her presence in a weaker faction that's keeping her down, but she's the one pilot that we're not seeing now that I'm most surprised about. Rush and Morna Kee I think also have good potential; I was pretty skeptical on Morna (she struck me as a poor man's RAC) but in practice she's actually surprisingly effective, although I'm not sold on the optimal list to put her in. I've heard people argue that G4R-GOR is a scary piece as well but I can't buy it.

For extended the entire hotshots pack felt essentially irrelevant to me. I cant think of any card in it that matters for the format. Maybe Ronith but even then kinda pointless.

For Hyperspace, I agree Leia Falcon with 2-3 supporting ships is useful. K2S0 crew is also pretty incredible. My time with resistance in hyper revolved around Zizi and as many ships as possible sometimes with Poe to which was fun. Lt France is not great but still a solid addition to FOs hyper options and something I enjoyed running despite its limitations. Allowed for some really entertaining lists with a mix of Holo France and 3 FOs.

For the record as well GOR is super cool and a Cyborg Dinosaur.

Leia for sure is overlooked, particularly in the context of Hyperspace. I'm not sure if she will get her moment in the sun now that the HS meta is in stasis and we'll probably get a point adjustment before we get back into the sort of serious competitive season it would take to evolve the current meta.

On 4/28/2020 at 4:07 PM, theBitterFig said:

Accept the format, you HS deniers, or Soontir will cost 70 points.

I don't know why people still think this is even remotely correlated. They're not.

Soontir either is worth 70 points in ALL the formats, EXTENDED HYPERSPACE AND STOP FORGETTING EPIC BALANCE TOO, I DONT KNOW WHY PEOPLE DONT UNDERSTAND THIS or he's not.

Hyperspace legality does not have ramifications for points balance. THATs IT.

On 4/29/2020 at 5:37 AM, Boom Owl said:

Prior polls I have run with similar #s ended up about 50/50. There is no doubt that there are alot of players who prefer hyperspace. _And about half who prefer extended, by the same degree of logic_

ftfy

Worlds 2020 and 2021 should be hyperspace only

4 hours ago, Transmogrifier said:

Leia for sure is overlooked, particularly in the context of Hyperspace. I'm not sure if she will get her moment in the sun now that the HS meta is in stasis and we'll probably get a point adjustment before we get back into the sort of serious competitive season it would take to evolve the current meta.

I've tried Leia in Extended where there's more reason to run her.

The falcon chasses are not forgiving in their cost. In this case, more upgrades do make more sense, but the value is somewhat diminished (compared to the super power creep combo wing of 1.0)

Neither do I find Rey particularly strong, even after the 3 point reduction I suggested / that FFg happened to also agree with from last balance cycle.

I hesitate to encourage more point reductions without knowing what upgrades a mature 2.0 has (or that we can raise them back up again).

But both Leia and Rey are rather limited pilots, who get somewhat better by adding upgrades. If you want suggestions, I've documented them for the public in my call for suggestions thread.

They're reasonable, but not strong. I've beaten Boba Fenn and i6 Vonreg lists with my Leia 3Z falcon list. But I'd guess I was a bit lucky, and the true win rate value in that match up is closer to 47-53. (within 5% of difference though is really not bad)

Just now, Boom Owl said:

Worlds 2020 and 2021 should be hyperspace only

Just now, Boom Owl said:

Worlds 2020 and 2021 should be hyperspace only

Thats all you can muster.

11 hours ago, DoubleDown11 said:

So a few months after Hotshots and Aces, it appears that only two pilots really entered the meta in a significant way (Nom Lumb and Zizi Tlo), with some visibility from a few others like Ronith Blario, Fifth Brother, and Lt. LeHuse, and complete non-existence from a few (Vagabond, G4R GOR, Paige, etc.)

With the benefit of a few months (strange as they've been):

• What were your biggest surprises (positive or negative) from the Hotshots pilots and their impact on the meta?
• Which pilots do you never see being a major presence (barring a wild points adjustment)?
• Who do you think people are sleeping on, or put another way, who do you anticipate to emerge as a significant role player in the meta?

For me, I think Leia Organa seems really strong, and I wonder if its her presence in a weaker faction that's keeping her down, but she's the one pilot that we're not seeing now that I'm most surprised about. Rush and Morna Kee I think also have good potential; I was pretty skeptical on Morna (she struck me as a poor man's RAC) but in practice she's actually surprisingly effective, although I'm not sold on the optimal list to put her in. I've heard people argue that G4R-GOR is a scary piece as well but I can't buy it.

Give Rush his Fanatical slot back and now we're talking.

6 hours ago, Boom Owl said:

Worlds 2020 and 2021 should be hyperspace only

6 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

Thats all you can muster.

It's bold, you gotta give him that...

2 hours ago, Hoarder of Garlic Bread said:

Give Rush his Fanatical slot back and now we're talking.

Somehow I don't think folks would particularly enjoy having a Fanatical Optics Soontir running around.

14 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

Hyperspace legality does not have ramifications for points balance.

Yes, it does. Points adjustments happen, not only for balance, but to reduce the rate of things that are overplayed but not particularly overpowered.

I miss Wedge.