11 hours ago, svelok said:

Nantex remind me of pre-cannon Jumpmasters, they could keep getting cheaper until they're good but I'm not sure anyone actually wants them to be good?

If the devs had actually fixed tractor the right way, they would have been super interesting without Ensnare, and not nearly as abusive with it.

And current points costs would be just about right, too. Imagine with me:

1. Ship is already in your arc. K.

2. Alternatively, ship is not in your arc. You could rotate your arc (though not to the rear) but if you do, you get a tractor.

3. Then, either you keep the tractor and lean into your GD re-roll, or you use it to move yourself (seems like the jackpot but requires planning or will end up worse for you; I'd argue it's less versatile than Adaptive Ailerons).

4. Alternatively, ditch the tractor onto your opponent with Ensnare if you have it (sacrificing your own reposition)

5. Finally, either leave it there for boosted attack or sacrifice it to move them.

My knee-jerk reaction says that for a ship that throws 2 dice this doesn't seem too strong. Original tractor is too strong. Tractor as it exists is both too strong to be fun but not strong enough to be good. This seems just about right. Why they decided to throw yet another rule into this game rather than just accepting the obvious, simple, elegant solution will always be a mystery to me.

On 2/29/2020 at 4:25 PM, Tlfj200 said:

I don’t really have fun playing against 7b, soontir, phantoms, 1300s (when they’re good), etc.

You know that points have been changed in Extended as well?

We had a small store tournament here locally at last weekend. Could not attend due to work schedule, but helped judging 2 rounds. 14 or 16 players (not sure now). Granted there were 2 1300s, but no Jedi (not even CLT, guess people are just bored to death playing Jedi (esp Obi), or just do not like or appreciate CLT?), and while there were 3 Empire lists, no Soontir and no Phantom.

But 5 FO lists! If the Xi comes fast (not likely with Corona effects?) we will be heartily sick of FO at next point change.

59 minutes ago, Cuz05 said:

What about permanently reversing baffle analyser Quads? Are they also the enemy?

It's a bit the same. But with more, or less, something.

Quadjumpers they actually overnerfed, have not seen one in ages. With the latest nerf to Tractor they could have dropped 1-2 pts.

And as slow as they are you can do something about them. Unless some of the other offenders which on top of the npe crap also often have boost.

I do agree that the tractor nerf is a bit inelegant, compared to simply spending the token, but I find it a very specific nerf to the Nantex.

I've never really used it to arc dodge and I'm more obnoxious with it than ever, given the cuts. Stress is a tool too.

Spending the token would be a far more general nerf, it'd effect me more, the Nantex probably less?

I'd have been fine with either. But was also fine with it before

I could do with being a bit less horrible tbh.

37 minutes ago, Managarmr said:

You know that points have been changed in Extended as well?

Wait, did soontir, 7b, phantoms, or 1300s go up in points? 😉

48 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

If the devs had actually fixed tractor the right way, they would have been super interesting without Ensnare, and not nearly as abusive with it.

And current points costs would be just about right, too. Imagine with me:

1. Ship is already in your arc. K.

2. Alternatively, ship is not in your arc. You could rotate your arc (though not to the rear) but if you do, you get a tractor.

3. Then, either you keep the tractor and lean into your GD re-roll, or you use it to move yourself (seems like the jackpot but requires planning or will end up worse for you; I'd argue it's less versatile than Adaptive Ailerons).

4. Alternatively, ditch the tractor onto your opponent with Ensnare if you have it (sacrificing your own reposition)

5. Finally, either leave it there for boosted attack or sacrifice it to move them.

My knee-jerk reaction says that for a ship that throws 2 dice this doesn't seem too strong. Original tractor is too strong. Tractor as it exists is both too strong to be fun but not strong enough to be good. This seems just about right. Why they decided to throw yet another rule into this game rather than just accepting the obvious, simple, elegant solution will always be a mystery to me.

Am I missing what you're proposed 'right way', elegant tractor solution is/was?

Edit: Oh... I just had to reread it like 6 times... Elegant?

Basically, completely change the chassis of the nantex, or go back in time and make the nantex chassis something else. I guess I sorta agree.

2 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

Am I missing what you're proposed 'right way', elegant tractor solution is/was?

Edit: Oh... I just had to reread it like 6 times... Elegant?

Basically, completely change the chassis of the nantex, or go back in time and make the nantex chassis something else. I guess I sorta agree.

I thought it was the obvious: Spend the tractor to move the ship.

The devs said they considered it but decided not to because "Self-tractoring without agility reduction was too strong."

I'm not convinced but maybe it really was in play-testing. Still I'd rather see the Nantex be good, if unblockable, than see Ensnare remain both necessary and totally NPE.

6 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

I thought it was the obvious: Spend the tractor to move the ship.

Now it's obvious. One sentence down from 5 bullets.

32 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

I thought it was the obvious: Spend the tractor to move the ship.

The devs said they considered it but decided not to because "Self-tractoring without agility reduction was too strong."

I'm not convinced but maybe it really was in play-testing. Still I'd rather see the Nantex be good, if unblockable, than see Ensnare remain both necessary and totally NPE.

I think the strength would be in moving around friendly ships. Some of the most interesting things I've seen with the Nantex involved moving some droids around to cancel out an arc dodge. You could shift a lot of stuff around after everything had moved. Being able to do that without the agility penalty was probably too good.

1 hour ago, Pleugim said:

I think the strength would be in moving around friendly ships.

Yep, this was the one caveat that the "spend" solution didn't work for. I think that would have been a sacrifice worth making though.

The excuse "Self-tractoring without agility reduction was too strong" is a little weak as essentially any Nantex that moves last IS self-tractoring without agility reduction since you are giving a tractor token away anyway. The stress solution works, but it still doesn't help against a Nantex driving into an opponent and then self-tractoring out of arc then giving the opponent the token without moving them.

2 hours ago, ClassicalMoser said:

If the devs had actually fixed tractor the right way, they would have been super interesting without Ensnare, and not nearly as abusive with it.

And current points costs would be just about right, too. Imagine with me:

1. Ship is already in your arc. K.

2. Alternatively, ship is not in your arc. You could rotate your arc (though not to the rear) but if you do, you get a tractor.

3. Then, either you keep the tractor and lean into your GD re-roll, or you use it to move yourself (seems like the jackpot but requires planning or will end up worse for you; I'd argue it's less versatile than Adaptive Ailerons).

4. Alternatively, ditch the tractor onto your opponent with Ensnare if you have it (sacrificing your own reposition)

5. Finally, either leave it there for boosted attack or sacrifice it to move them.

My knee-jerk reaction says that for a ship that throws 2 dice this doesn't seem too strong. Original tractor is too strong. Tractor as it exists is both too strong to be fun but not strong enough to be good. This seems just about right. Why they decided to throw yet another rule into this game rather than just accepting the obvious, simple, elegant solution will always be a mystery to me.

I know some folks talk about "spend the tractor token to move the ship" as though it was some obvious and wonderful and universally agreed-upon change, but I really think it'd have been a terrible idea.

5 hours ago, Tlfj200 said:

Wait, did soontir, 7b, phantoms, or 1300s go up in points? 😉

of course not. But a ton of generics and other pilots got cheaper, which potentially makes more arcs on board (a problem for Soontir) and changes the meta.

Of course this was just one data point, and only a small store one, and maybe people messed more around than coming with the superoptimised list.

But i found the composition of the field certainly interesting (no Scum btw).

11 hours ago, Boom Owl said:

But also rear or 180 arcs are still definitely the enemy.

No doubt about that, or about the fact that I will keep playing rz2s as long as I can

e: and yet, after thinking more about it, A-wings in Resistance are now more often than not the wrong choice. The places for A-wings are 5A, if points are tight in other 5ships-lists, and some very well architectured lists. Otherwise a 42pt T70 is just the better choice.

6 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

Otherwise a 42pt T70 is just the better choice.

Thats a good sign. Single reposition + mostly single action forward arc dial correctly gang.

7 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

e: and yet, after thinking more about it, A-wings in Resistance are now more often than not the wrong choice. The places for A-wings are 5A, if points are tight in other 5ships-lists, and some very well architectured lists. Otherwise a 42pt T70 is just the better choice.

There are a lot of really good options for resistance around 40-50 points, meaning that 4-5 ship resistance jousting blocks are not a cookie cutter list, but do contain a lot of similar pieces.

Consider Kaz, Talli, Zizi, Greer, Bastian, Generic T-70s, Also - is there a better jousting pair than Bastian / Jess for 98 points?

Add in that fireballs appear to be the among the most efficient ships at 26 points, and I think we might see an upsurge in them at top tables ... a few reasons, not least of which is that it is easier to put them on the table than the droids!

7 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

No doubt about that, or about the fact that I will keep playing rz2s as long as I can

e: and yet, after thinking more about it, A-wings in Resistance are now more often than not the wrong choice. The places for A-wings are 5A, if points are tight in other 5ships-lists, and some very well architectured lists. Otherwise a 42pt T70 is just the better choice.

54 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

Thats a good sign. Single reposition + mostly single action forward arc dial correctly gang.

As much as i like my snub fighters, if the game is mostly snub fighters, fen rau gets to god status real quick. I do love me some fenn rau, but he is an absolute monster against most low I arc locked ships, to the point of being borderline unfun to play against

16 minutes ago, catachanninja said:

As much as i like my snub fighters, if the game is mostly snub fighters, fen rau gets to god status real quick. I do love me some fenn rau, but he is an absolute monster against most low I arc locked ships, to the point of being borderline unfun to play against

Sure, for the guy who pinwheels his ships who don't need to be in formation...

But what if your 5 x-wings were spread out...?

Edit: you're not actually entirely wrong, but it's just so easy...

15 hours ago, Tlfj200 said:

Wait, did soontir, 7b, phantoms, or 1300s go up in points? 😉

What's the issue with 1300s?they are just giant points piñatas nowadays

1 minute ago, Sunitsa said:

What's the issue with 1300s?they are just giant points piñatas nowadays

When they're good, they're horrific combo unfun machines.

They seem really binary on the fun scale.

3 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

When they're good, they're horrific combo unfun machines.

They seem really binary on the fun scale.

Oh yeah I agree.

Sadly large bases got utterly gutted in 2.0, they are either combo carriers of or almost completely useless right now.

Personally I blame the lack of linked rotate and some questionable crew designs

Switch to Battletech initiative:

• Random roll each round
• First player moves one unit of their choice then second player moves one
• If uneven numbers, go single moves until one person has twice as many then that person starts moving two per.

And then stop and realize that this has it's own issues, shrug, and just do what FFG said anyway

Honestly, if each game randomly determined who first player was (rather than bidding), I think that'd be an incrementally better step than we have now.

I'm fine with bid war if lists are noticibly worse for all the points they don't spend.

Counting to 200 ftw.

3 hours ago, catachanninja said:

As much as i like my snub fighters, if the game is mostly snub fighters, fen rau gets to god status real quick. I do love me some fenn rau, but he is an absolute monster against most low I arc locked ships, to the point of being borderline unfun to play against

I think multi arc ships are pretty close to where they should be in hyperspace with the main exceptions being Boba and Zizi. Maybe Han/Leia could be grouped with those since they get unblockable mods but thats more a force charge and chargless pilot ability issue. Overall they some how almost nailed the Falcon design in 2.0 without any 1 hards and a red boost action (ignoring one or two outlier Crew/Upgrade Combos). SFs are also pretty well done with red instead of white 1 hards, and no boost action to begin with. Decimator to, good design no reposition besides moff jj which is very important given how degenerate big/medium base high init multi arc boost is.

I dont have a problem with multi arc ships. I do have a problem with dials and reposition actions being given to them in such a way that they approximate 360 functionality, especially paired with unblockable passive modification.

57 minutes ago, Cuz05 said:

I'm fine with bid war if lists are noticibly worse for all the points they don't spend.

Counting to 200 ftw.

Everyone is fine with bids wars in theory, except how they play out in practice.

Same team.

I just see little harm in having it be random, so people don't just bring lists effectively trying to ensure "moving last" as their upgrade in every game by default.