15 minutes ago, Hoarder of Garlic Bread said:

Give it both mod slots and do the price drop + ensnare waaaaay up. Stealth Device Gravitic Deflection looks cool. Treacherous could have a use, and that's Hyperspace. Heck, even target computer and hull upgrade could be interesting if we're limiting ourselves to Hyperspace.

But ensnare is so entertainingggggggnggng

3 hours ago, MasterShake2 said:

I'm with you...it's fine (tm), just not sure how it fits into rebel list building.

The A1....

I don't Rebel but this sounds like truth.

I'm having great joy with 2 or 3 naked Spacers for Scum. Paying 4pt to swap a hull for a Shield and gain linked boost certainly seems fine (tm). But on the Scum side, the points are all lining up quite nicely.

I presume they just don't blend so well over there.

Although 4pt is not nothing, I feel like I probably prefer paying less for less.

I keep wanting to play 4 cavern angels and 2 bandits only to remember that they are not hyperspace legal

5 hours ago, Hoarder of Garlic Bread said:

Give it both mod slots and do the price drop + ensnare waaaaay up. Stealth Device Gravitic Deflection looks cool. Treacherous could have a use, and that's Hyperspace. Heck, even target computer and hull upgrade could be interesting if we're limiting ourselves to Hyperspace.

I'm not paying like 28pts for a Nantex and then taking like 8-13 points of upgrades on it

Nantex remind me of pre-cannon Jumpmasters, they could keep getting cheaper until they're good but I'm not sure anyone actually wants them to be good?

Would 7 Nantex be "fun" to play against? Or Six with gravitic? I'm open to the argument that they're mostly Strikers but I'm fairly convinced they're more like RZ2s in terms of how they feel to play against. And I wasn't planning to go to war with the RZ2 fanbase today, but they were always my enemies so if this is the first stone so be it.

7 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

Compared to the A2 (32), The nantex has -

Positive: Higher PS by 2 (easily 2-4pts), 3 die bullseye(?? 2-4 points??)
Wash: firing arcs, action choices (Awing can have 2, nantex gets 1 or 3 but for tractor), same agility, similar dial goodness.
Negative: hull vs shields (1-2pt), the tractor token significantly drops their value (5-6pt)

So, 32 + 4 + (2to4) - 2 - 6 = 30-32. Depends on how valuable you see the bullseye of course. But I don't think its worth more than 4 points due to how little its used at I3. At higher initiative, it might be worth a little more, but I suggest not really from my table experience.

Just start with the Green RZ-2, same 34 points, same initiative. Nantex gets the bullseye, at the cost of the tractor instead of stress. Shields are probably worth at least 1 point, but the fact that you don't get a stress from the tractor (keeping the dial more open) is probably also a point, so I think those wash. If we view Gravitic Deflection as eliminating the defensive penalty of the tractor token (close enough), that's 5 points. Bullseye perhaps best compares to Autoblasters. That's 3 points, with range 3 balancing the out-of-arc stuff.

As such, maybe 32 seems right for the Hive Guard.

//

As to Sun Fac and Chertek? Well, to some extent, it's worth just realizing that the entire Nantex design was a major screw up, and just accept the loss with dignity. They done goofed.

7 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

I think I would have rather seen errata to ensnare and the nantex ability to tighten the cases it could be used instead of the tractor changes. Those also affect other ships poorly, like Thanisson. And tractor isn't super strong in 2e, esp with Cannons still allowing extra green dice at R3.

Tractor isn't just about the strength (although a Tractor Beam, if you can pull an enemy a range band closer, is often worth using), but about the fact that it's a really unpleasant NPE. Quadjumpers in early 2e were an absolute pain. Ketsu is a massive bully. She doesn't win all the tournaments, but the ease at which she could deny folks shots, put them onto rocks and in horrible situations, could get pretty frustrating.

I keep thinking back to when the devs said "You don't want a version of X-Wing where Ion is good." And I agree with that. Some control is good, but when it's too strong, it gets really bad.

//

Also, what changes to Ensnare and the Nantex ability? I keep thinking back to when Advanced SLAM got nerfed in 1e to prevent Miranda from doing bomb drops, and a lot of folks were saying stuff like "SLAM should have been changed instead." But the thing is: I never saw anyone with strong suggestions on what to change it to.

I think it'd be easy to say that the Nantex ability now has to be fully execute, so being blocked is a serious problem instead of a minor one. Ensnare is a bit trickier. Have it give the Nantex a stress as a cost to use? That'll limit the next turn's moves a bit (no Hard turns is impactful), but it'd still remain strong now with only a next-turn drawback.

Meanwhile, I think the Tractor changes are probably fairly good. They eliminate two of the most annoying things with tractors: being deprived of a shot (now an opponent needs to rock you, not just slide you around in clear space), and being forced to fly over obstacles or worse.

6 hours ago, Hoarder of Garlic Bread said:

Give it both mod slots and do the price drop + ensnare waaaaay up. Stealth Device Gravitic Deflection looks cool. Treacherous could have a use, and that's Hyperspace. Heck, even target computer and hull upgrade could be interesting if we're limiting ourselves to Hyperspace.

I keep being mixed on the mod slots. I mean, this ship was clearly intended to have them, and removing them was almost surely a last-minute fix based on playtesting power. Getting Afterburners on one of these would be huge, though. They're kind of scariest at Range 1, so having a tool to close ranges well (as well as adjust vectors... Tractor only doing a straight-boost is a drawback).

Overall, though, I don't think it'd be a huge buff for generics to get the slot. Mod slots go unfilled on most ships. I can't recall the last time I saw a filled mod slot on a non-Soontir Interceptor, or non-Vader TIE/x1, and so forth.

42 minutes ago, svelok said:

...but I'm not sure anyone actually wants them to be good?

Would 7 Nantex be "fun" to play against? Or Six with gravitic? I'm open to the argument that they're mostly Strikers but I'm fairly convinced they're more like RZ2s in terms of how they feel to play against. And I wasn't planning to go to war with the RZ2 fanbase today, but they were always my enemies so if this is the first stone so be it.

I'd agree with this.

I don't think a point or two shifted from the base ship to Ensnare is a problem, but going much further could be. It's a highly mobile turret ship which gets an action while bumping of flying over rocks and clouds. If they got the the point of being large-tournament-good instead of just casual-night-good, that'd be unfortunate. I don't war with the RZ-2, but I can see the ways in which they're more annoying than their power level.

8 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

As such, maybe 32 seems right for the Hive Guard

That's a net drop of 2 points. I don't think that's going to convince anybody.

6 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

Well, to some extent, it's worth just realizing that the entire Nantex design was a major screw up, and just accept the loss with dignity. They done goofed.

This is where I am too. Until/unless they want to Stabilized S-Foils the ship in a card pack and release a "fix" card/pilot, it's probably just worth moving on.

They don't have the game impact to warrant being many points and I don't think anyone has fun in the timeline where they're swarm points.

6 minutes ago, svelok said:

That's a net drop of 2 points. I don't think that's going to convince anybody.

I'm fine if a lot of folks go unconvinced. Striker and Interceptor generics only went down 2-3, and that was kind of enough. Are they everywhere now? Not really, but they're not quite so bad anymore. That seems like a reasonable goal.

1 hour ago, svelok said:

And I wasn't planning to go to war with the RZ2 fanbase today, but they were always my enemies so if this is the first stone so be it.

What, you don't like dogfight games where the other player never has to, like, ACTUALLY dogfight? But running away takes such SKILL

Even if you do throw the first stone you still have to hit AG 3 at range three with a green token (sigh)

2 hours ago, svelok said:

And I wasn't planning to go to war with the RZ2 fanbase today, but they were always my enemies so if this is the first stone so be it.

Boba is just a fat RZ2, change my mind

42 minutes ago, MasterShake2 said:

Boba is just a fat RZ2, change my mind

No, Boba is a fat Tie SF. Rz-2s are just mini jumpmasters. (Pre-cannon slot)

also I’m glad once again the thread devolved into “but muh Rz-2” when attempting to talking about rebel A-wings, because apparently flying zoomy ships with forward only arcs is only allowed in other factions apparently.

I for one dont forget the role that turrets played in making 1.0 an absolute joke of a game.

Rear Arcs and Mobile Arcs are still the enemy. But premovement reposition and defensive token stacks are the real enemy.

48 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

I for one dont forget the role that turrets played in making 1.0 an absolute joke of a game.

Rear Arcs and Mobile Arcs are still the enemy. But premovement reposition and defensive token stacks are the real enemy.

Porque no los todos? But on chassis that appreciate the boost? Cancer + B tier = A+ tier, right?

Rexler Brath (81)
Lone Wolf (5)
Advanced Sensors (10)

Ship total: 96 Half Points: 48 Threshold: 4

Maarek Stele (45)
Crack Shot (1)
Passive Sensors (3)

Ship total: 49 Half Points: 25 Threshold: 3

Omicron Group Pilot (43)
Emperor Palpatine (11)

Ship total: 54 Half Points: 27 Threshold: 5


Total: 199

View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0: https://raithos.github.io/?f=Galactic Empire&d=v8ZsZ200Z196X124W111WWY174X116W240WWY168XWW29WWW&sn=Unnamed Squadron&obs=

Adv. sensor Rex allows you to play a lot more aggressively with the Defender dial. Merely because it turns off Full Throttle, people sleep on it. Threaten the token stack and then dodge or block on your own terms. And an unblockable K turn makes Ryad look small potatoes. Maarek lives longer thanks to Palp and coordinate and can crank the ability with crackshot.

2 hours ago, Cloaker said:

What, you don't like dogfight games where the other player never has to, like, ACTUALLY dogfight? But running away takes such SKILL

Even if you do throw the first stone you still have to hit AG 3 at range three with a green token (sigh)

And you know that A-Wing will just blank out and heroic

12 minutes ago, MasterShake2 said:

And you know that A-Wing will just blank out and heroic

into 3 more blanks

1 minute ago, Npmartian said:

into 3 more blanks

I was promised when I equipped heroic there would be no blanks...

7 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

I was promised when I equipped heroic there would be no blanks...

1 hour ago, Boom Owl said:

I for one dont forget the role that turrets played in making 1.0 an absolute joke of a game.

Rear Arcs and Mobile Arcs are still the enemy. But premovement reposition and defensive token stacks are the real enemy.

Agreed to the latter.

That's why Carnor jax needs to come back, he is the hero we deserve, not the hero we want.

48 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

I was promised when I equipped heroic there would be no blanks...

I can promise you were lied to.

52 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

I was promised when I equipped heroic there would be no blanks...

Yeah, and they promised the Advanced Optics guys, they'd always get 2 hits, but Mr. Blank/Focus always lies

3 hours ago, Tlfj200 said:

I was promised when I equipped heroic there would be no blanks...

Buddy Blank busting through Heroic like:

I just realized while thinking about how much better new HS is compared to the old regarding being a limited format:

Every one of my World's matches were HS only games. But none of the lists involved today are HS legal.

Limited formats should mean something, and now they do! It also makes extended more intriguing by making that moniker mean more than Whisper or Torkil or Z95's! Primes will be exciting in truly needing different lists and practice than store champs.

5 hours ago, Boom Owl said:

Rear Arcs and Mobile Arcs are still the enemy. But premovement reposition and defensive token stacks are the real enemy.

This, a million times this!

58 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

This, a million times this!

But also rear or 180 arcs are still definitely the enemy.

What about permanently reversing baffle analyser Quads? Are they also the enemy?

It's a bit the same. But with more, or less, something.