1 minute ago, ClassicalMoser said:

I think this is why people are saying she's under-costed. It's not so much that she's getting all that work done as that whenever you do decide to shoot at her, you're basically wasting your time. Kind of a similar game experience to Rebel Fenn or a TIE Defender, but without the support tricks or punch. She's just annoying.

No one's saying she'll ever be the right target choice, but sometimes she's the only one you have in arc, and there's an inherently game-warping effect of a ship always being the "wrong" target choice, especially if that ship is I5 (even if it's not dealing much damage).

These are observations in the argument, not arguments themselves. I don't have any play experience with her so I don't have an opinion.

That's totally valid, because that's the way I've seen her. Someone can only shoot at Zizi, they do nothing and hate Zizi. Meanwhile, she may or may not have done any damage. I think, for what I'm trying to do, which definitely skews my opinion, I'd rather have something that does damage, and/or is more of an offensive threat, and takes some in return.

Like, what are people doing with Zizi which makes her absolutely necessary?

Just now, gennataos said:

Like, what are people doing with Zizi which makes her absolutely necessary?

Are people allowed to talk about 5A now?

Just now, ClassicalMoser said:

Are people allowed to talk about 5A now?

No, because that's obvious and I wouldn't even consider contesting it.

16 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

That is why you can more often ignore an Awing compared to a T70. Treating Zizi like a T70 (what does that even mean?) does not add a red die.

because 2 die optics is approximately the same as a 3 die gun with focus.

16 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Just to make sure: Zizi is an amazing Awing, easily the best. But is a single Awing still relevant? Are 5 still relevant? Definitely not in extended, and maybe not even in the current hyperspace.

But, I'm not arguing to bring 5A. The supposition that once there's 1A, there's 5A (or a lot of A) is odd. That's like saying that once there's one T70s, you might as well just be all T70.

There's some reason to have ZiZi, a highly consistent ship

16 minutes ago, gennataos said:

She's not a T-70, though.

She dies real easy to an I6, particularly if that I6 brought friends to party with Zizi.

She is not a T70. She's T70-adjacent, but can turtle if she wants to. Also, T70s likewise can die if focused (shh... keep this secret safe - almost all the hyperspace ships can die if they're focused, even T70s!).

Like, heres a generically good resistance list we like that's flexible, generally jousts, and has an endgame. Generally speaking, I want a list that presents an endgame, and low initiative T70s dont do that. I'm not saying it's a world beater, but it's 5 ships, it has 3 3-die guns, and two that are 2-die but highly accurate, it's above i2, and has 2 'closers'

Kazuda Xiono (40)
Coaxium Hyperfuel (2)

Ship total: 42 Half Points: 21 Threshold: 3

Red Squadron Expert (44)
Integrated S-Foils (0)

Ship total: 44 Half Points: 22 Threshold: 4

Red Squadron Expert (44)
Integrated S-Foils (0)

Ship total: 44 Half Points: 22 Threshold: 4

Rose Tico (26)
Ship total: 26 Half Points: 13 Threshold: 2

Zizi Tlo (40)
Advanced Optics (4)

Ship total: 44 Half Points: 22 Threshold: 2


Total: 200

View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0: https://raithos.github.io/?f=Resistance&d=v8ZhZ200Z378XWWW310WWWY257XWWW175WWWY257XWWW175WWWY345XWWWY387XWWW186&sn=kaz Rose 3X&obs=coreasteroid5,core2asteroid4,core2asteroid5

I feel like we are over complicating this. Zizi is a 40 pt i5 ace with good time on target that doesnt give up points easily. Its really useful in a wide variety of lists. With a little set up you can swoop in for r1 shots and play her more aggressively which is great.

There arent a ton of i5s at that cost with that mobility and that durability in hyper. Straight up ace filler with almost no risk of being init killed given limited i6s.

I still think nearly all i5+ ships are undercosted so I am super biased. My perception of Zizi is not at all just picking on that one ship. All the aces must suffer. They still havent.

I actually played this in that vassal league, and generally agree I would have preferred the 3rd true 3-die gun, but man is R5 *really* solid on kaz. So, pick your poisons, I guess.

Kazuda Xiono (40)
R5 Astromech (4)
Coaxium Hyperfuel (2)

Ship total: 46 Half Points: 23 Threshold: 3

Red Squadron Expert (44)
Integrated S-Foils (0)
Black One (2)

Ship total: 46 Half Points: 23 Threshold: 4

Rose Tico (26)
Ship total: 26 Half Points: 13 Threshold: 2

Zizi Tlo (40)
Advanced Optics (4)

Ship total: 44 Half Points: 22 Threshold: 2

Tallissan Lintra (36)
Ship total: 36 Half Points: 18 Threshold: 2


Total: 198

View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0: https://raithos.github.io/?f=Resistance&d=v8ZhZ200Z378XWW6W310WWWY257XWWW175WW171WY345XWWWY387XWWW186Y240XWWW&sn=kaz Rose 3X&obs=coreasteroid5,core2asteroid4,core2asteroid5

2 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

I actually played this in that vassal league, and generally agree I would have preferred the 3rd true 3-die gun, but man is R5 *really* solid on kaz. So, pick your poisons, I guess.

Kazuda Xiono (40)
R5 Astromech (4)
Coaxium Hyperfuel (2)

Ship total: 46 Half Points: 23 Threshold: 3

Red Squadron Expert (44)
Integrated S-Foils (0)
Black One (2)

Ship total: 46 Half Points: 23 Threshold: 4

Rose Tico (26)
Ship total: 26 Half Points: 13 Threshold: 2

Zizi Tlo (40)
Advanced Optics (4)

Ship total: 44 Half Points: 22 Threshold: 2

Tallissan Lintra (36)
Ship total: 36 Half Points: 18 Threshold: 2


Total: 198

View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0: https://raithos.github.io/?f=Resistance&d=v8ZhZ200Z378XWW6W310WWWY257XWWW175WW171WY345XWWWY387XWWW186Y240XWWW&sn=kaz Rose 3X&obs=coreasteroid5,core2asteroid4,core2asteroid5

Iv been running 5 ship poe lists with 65522 sometimes two colossus sometimes rose. Its not the best ace **** in the format but its really flexible still.

You can even do Zizi Tali Yeager 2 rookies.

https://raithos.github.io/?f=Resistance&d=v8ZhZ200Z387XWWW186Y377XWWWWWWY240XWWWY258XWW175WWWY258XWW175WWW&sn=Unnamed Squadron&obs=

1 minute ago, Tlfj200 said:

But, I'm not arguing to bring 5A. The supposition that once there's 1A, there's 5A (or a lot of A) is odd. That's like saying that once there's one T70s, you might as well just be all T70.

That's not how I meant it, sorry for the confusion. I meant two completely separate squads, one with Zizi and whatever else, the other 5A.

3 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

because 2 die optics is approximately the same as a 3 die gun with focus.

... with the relevant difference as explained. A difference that matters more in a meta with many 3agility ships, and in a format without crackshot. Why is that difference not relevant to you? Clearly you think so and don't agree with me because you didn't engage that part of my post. I wonder where I'm wrong.

6 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

because 2 die optics is approximately the same as a 3 die gun with focus.

???????
?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

2 dice optics is like the halfway point between 2/3 dice:

2 dice: 1.5

3 dice: 2.25

2 w/ optics: 1.8

Just now, Brunas said:

2 dice optics is like the halfway point between 2/3 dice:

2 dice: 1.5

3 dice: 2.25

2 w/ optics: 1.8

To be fair, it feels similar as the chance of 2+ hits is a virtually identical

6 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

... with the relevant difference as explained. A difference that matters more in a meta with many 3agility ships, and in a format without crackshot. Why is that difference not relevant to you? Clearly you think so and don't agree with me because you didn't engage that part of my post. I wonder where I'm wrong.

Because I still want *something* that threatens an endgame as ship count diminishes on the board, and low-initiative T70s aren't going to cut it.

It doesn't mean I don't want any low-initiative t70s, it means I want to diversify my portfolio.

5 minutes ago, Brunas said:

???????
?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

2 dice optics is like the halfway point between 2/3 dice:

2 dice: 1.5

3 dice: 2.25

2 w/ optics: 1.8

optics against 2 agility /1 focus:

1 damage 52%

3 die /w focus
1 damage 70%

Delta 18%

in both cases, Chance for defender to keep focus: approx 59%

10 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

I still think nearly all i5+ ships are undercosted so I am super biased. My perception of Zizi is not at all just picking on that one ship. All the aces must suffer. They still havent.

We need a solution to aces...like a final one

5 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

To be fair, it feels similar as the chance of 2+ hits is a virtually identical

But then couldn't you say "2 dice optics is the same as 3298475398745 dice" the odds of 2+ are virtually identical. I mean, yes, but...

3 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

optics against 2 agility /1 focus:

1 damage 52%

3 die /w focus
1 damage 70%

Delta 18%

in both cases, Chance to keep focus: approx 59%

Unironically missing where this is going

1 minute ago, Brunas said:

But then couldn't you say "2 dice optics is the same as 3298475398745 dice" the odds of 2+ are virtually identical. I mean, yes, but...

Unironically missing where this is going

Ok

10 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

because 2 die optics is approximately the same as a 3 die gun with focus.

But, I'm not arguing to bring 5A. The supposition that once there's 1A, there's 5A (or a lot of A) is odd. That's like saying that once there's one T70s, you might as well just be all T70.

There's some reason to have ZiZi, a highly consistent ship

She is not a T70. She's T70-adjacent, but can turtle if she wants to. Also, T70s likewise can die if focused (shh... keep this secret safe - almost all the hyperspace ships can die if they're focused, even T70s!).

Like, heres a generically good resistance list we like that's flexible, generally jousts, and has an endgame. Generally speaking, I want a list that presents an endgame, and low initiative T70s dont do that. I'm not saying it's a world beater, but it's 5 ships, it has 3 3-die guns, and two that are 2-die but highly accurate, it's above i2, and has 2 'closers'

Kazuda Xiono (40)
Coaxium Hyperfuel (2)

Ship total: 42 Half Points: 21 Threshold: 3

Red Squadron Expert (44)
Integrated S-Foils (0)

Ship total: 44 Half Points: 22 Threshold: 4

Red Squadron Expert (44)
Integrated S-Foils (0)

Ship total: 44 Half Points: 22 Threshold: 4

Rose Tico (26)
Ship total: 26 Half Points: 13 Threshold: 2

Zizi Tlo (40)
Advanced Optics (4)

Ship total: 44 Half Points: 22 Threshold: 2


Total: 200

View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0: https://raithos.github.io/?f=Resistance&d=v8ZhZ200Z378XWWW310WWWY257XWWW175WWWY257XWWW175WWWY345XWWWY387XWWW186&sn=kaz Rose 3X&obs=coreasteroid5,core2asteroid4,core2asteroid5

This is the kind of stuff I've been asking about/for. This makes sense to me.

9 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

I feel like we are over complicating this. Zizi is a 40 pt i5 ace with good time on target that doesnt give up points easily.

I brought it up because I think it's worth discussing because I think many/most people will default to the "auto-include Zizi for Resistance" decision I had done initially...and I no longer think that's true. Initially talking about undercosting may be moving the goalposts (sorry!), but the auto-include assumption is really where I'm driving.

8 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

I actually played this in that vassal league, and generally agree I would have preferred the 3rd true 3-die gun, but man is R5 *really* solid on kaz. So, pick your poisons, I guess.

Kazuda Xiono (40)
R5 Astromech (4)
Coaxium Hyperfuel (2)

Ship total: 46 Half Points: 23 Threshold: 3

Red Squadron Expert (44)
Integrated S-Foils (0)
Black One (2)

Ship total: 46 Half Points: 23 Threshold: 4

Rose Tico (26)
Ship total: 26 Half Points: 13 Threshold: 2

Zizi Tlo (40)
Advanced Optics (4)

Ship total: 44 Half Points: 22 Threshold: 2

Tallissan Lintra (36)
Ship total: 36 Half Points: 18 Threshold: 2


Total: 198

View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0: https://raithos.github.io/?f=Resistance&d=v8ZhZ200Z378XWW6W310WWWY257XWWW175WW171WY345XWWWY387XWWW186Y240XWWW&sn=kaz Rose 3X&obs=coreasteroid5,core2asteroid4,core2asteroid5

Also interesting.

I've probably approached this whole thing wrong because I'm looking at it through a very specific lens. I already have my endgame ship, which doesn't always have to survive to the end game if I have numbers. So I find myself asking if I want a second end game ship or arrive at that end game sooner.

I do appreciate the involved participation, though...not just knee-jerk "well of course she's undercosted!" responses.

2 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

Ok

No I'm serious, I mean I don't get the point you're making - isn't that math saying that 2 dice optics is pretty notably worse than 3 dice? Is there something I'm missing?

@gennataos im not really faction locked so I dont have to much skin in the game. For me its less about is zizi auto include more about is the resistance ace squad list im running the best version of that archetype. So far my conclusion is no. Though resistance does seem to be able to run very mobile high init pieces in 5 ship lists which is excellent. Its maybe not better than Republic but does that mean i should change my preferred resistance list? Maybe. I genuinely don’t know.

Hyper is so hard to evaluate. I have only played one list so far that I could definitely say was “bad”. Everything else including zizi squads just have been working for me no complaints.

All this talk comparing her to a T-70 is kind of off the mark – we all know she's not a T-70.

Breaking a cardinal rule of this discussion and jumping into theoryland because everyone keeps talking about it.

Chance of two hits at R2:

T-70 with Heroic = 0.86

Zizi with Heroic and Optics = 0.86

Chance of three hits at R2:

T-70 with Heroic = 0.43

Zizi with Heroic and Optics = 0.00

Both focused ships attacking 3-agility and focus at range 2, having a focus themselves:

T-70 with Heroic = 0.561

Zizi with Heroic + Optics = 0.245

Both focused ships attacking 2-agility without focus at range 2, having a focus themselves:

T-70 with Heroic = 1.45

Zizi with Heroic + Optics = 1.03

They both deal some damage, the T-70 clearly deals more. Now defending at range 2 vs a 3-dice focused attack:

T-70 with Heroic and Focus = 0.909

Zizi with Heroic and Focus = 0.553

Zizi with Heroic, Focus, and Evade = 0.121

Naturally, Zizi at I5 will get the favorable engagement much more often, and she will have her tokens more often. Keep in mind that both ships being compared here cost 45 points. Her damage output is certianly lower. Her defense is certainly higher. Resume the conjecture.

11 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

For me its less about is zizi auto include more about is the resistance ace squad list im running the best version of that archetype. So far my conclusion is no.

I find that to be an interesting discussion, too. Finding the "best" versions of an archetype in this new Hyperspace will be interesting. I think Poe + squad has a real chance to be the best version of I6 + squad, so I'm pretty focused and excited about it.

I dont understand the focus on zizi's offensive output when its the category in which they're no different from tallie or any other replacement level rz2...?

2 minutes ago, svelok said:

I dont understand the focus on zizi's offensive output when its the category in which they're no different from tallie or any other replacement level rz2...?

The fact that she can always use her focus with abandon and not worry about the consequences. And if she happens to roll well, she has a token stack on defense.

1 hour ago, Biophysical said:

What if you're spamming a well rounded ship? T65s aren't too slow, have some hp, but not too many, agility, but not too much, good offense, but not overwhelming. It's a pretty well rounded ship, so spamming it means you're spamming the one-trick of... well-roundedness?

I mean, that's why I don't think Spam Lists should necessarily be bad. I'm mostly just trying to understand where folks are coming from.

30 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

Because I still want *something* that threatens an endgame as ship count diminishes on the board, and low-initiative T70s aren't going to cut it.

It doesn't mean I don't want any low-initiative t70s, it means I want to diversify my portfolio.

Fair. Zizi is the best endgame Awing, but I'm not sure that it's a good endgame ship in more absolute terms.

Looking through a points/hp lens:

It is likely to have lost shields once you reach the endgame, putting her 1 bad roll from death, and at just 22points remaining.

Even if that is not the case, she is always a bad roll away from giving up points.

And if even that does not happen, she is just 45 points.

She is tanky af with double token, but also a bad points bunker. So I assume that she won't be used to win on points at time, but to finish off an opponent. Which a) makes her less tanky, and b) brings us back to the point that she's not a 3dice gun.

21 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

It is likely to have lost shields once you reach the endgame, putting her 1 bad roll from death...

Even if that is not the case, she is always a bad roll away from giving up points.

Zizi... almost doesn't care what you roll? She should be taking evade if she uses her focus on attack. Honestly, she should be taking evade if she doesn't use her focus on attack.

Even focus blank blank (absolute worst case scenario) means two evade results if she has focus/evade. Then she might take one damage, or two if it's R1 or Protorps. 1v1 she's like a TIE Defender that doesn't hit very hard. She shouldn't really use her tokens on attack if she's getting shot at (except vs tokenless or 0-1 agility defenders), because she can out-survive pretty much anything with her token stack. And all of this is assuming she's getting shot at in the first place, which she usually shouldn't be in the endgame.

She dies to focused fire, yes. Token stacks deplete. But that's not an endgame concern.

All that said,

Quote

She is tanky af with double token, but also a bad points bunker. So I assume that she won't be used to win on points at time, but to finish off an opponent. Which a) makes her less tanky, and b) brings us back to the point that she's not a 3dice gun.

is still totally true. If you don't have time to finish them off, it's definitely a losing proposition.

I almost wonder if ZiziXXX would be her best list? Aggro on the start and she cleans up what's left (very slowly)?

The first list I played with after the points change was XXX Zizi and XX Cova Zizi with the same idea. Punch hard and clean up later with Zizi. All that ended up being was that I was one ship shorter in the joust than XXXX which meant that by the time endgame came Zizi had a mountain to climb. Yeah she is yet to die for me in any game, but what good does that do if I am down by points in the endgame and Zizi cannot push the damage through to swing it back.

Like I mentioned in the Resistance thread over at Squad List. Never have I seen a ship overperform its point cost so obviously and yet drag the rest of the list down because it's not contributing.