6 hours ago, AEIllingworth said:

I kinda think people don’t like spam because it is hard to talk about. Reading out a list of names and squads with just “8 /fo” gives no synergies to talk about, it’s all about what you do on the board.

Qutoing for emphasis

Archetypes that I enjoy:

- Ace Ace Ace - one in quotes though

- Ace Ace Squad Squad

- Ace Squad Squad Gang

- Ace Squad Squad Squad Gang

- Ace Squad Squad Squad Squad Gang

- Ace + Squad x6

- Ace Ace Ace Ace - all in quotes though

- Squad x5

- Squad x6

- Squad x7

- Squad x8

- Ace Ace Chonk

- Chonk + Squad x7

(mostly) Same team

I don't quite agree with @ClassicalMoser about whether spam lists should be weaker as a design goal, but some part of it makes sense. A spam list is, kinda, a one-trick pony. If one trick is all you need to win tournaments, maybe trick could be too strong.

Maybe.

Comparing something like 5 Optics Omega SFs, to 4 Optics Zetas + Avenger, to a more diverse non-Optics Avenger swarm, there's levels of how mixed the squad gets, but there isn't going to be a huge difference on table. I don't necessarily think it's bad for someone to prefer a more simple archetype to avoid having to overthink things. Flying monoculture lists can often be harder on the table, because you'll need to get positioning a lot better, and blocks, and so forth.

I think it's a tricky balance. You don't want good flying to be overwhelmed by pure efficiency flown thoughtlessly. Flipside, you don't want to require perfect decision making for generics to compete against words and orange and purple numbers flown poorly. Somewhere in there is the "sweet spot" where you can fly Aces or Generics (even Spam Generics).

29 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

A spam list is, kinda, a one-trick pony. If one trick is all you need to win tournaments, maybe trick could be too strong.

trip aces, the dominant archetype for almost all of 2.0:

@Stay OT Leader brought up (what I think is) a good point in that abominable TLT/Optics thread, which I refuse to bump. I've played Zizi a fair amount and I don't know if she's really all that undercosted. She's a 2-die gun with an amazing ability which is primarily a defensive upgrade. She's a bad target points fortress that doesn't really punish your opponent much for ignoring her and can play a situational role as an end game ship. I started off thinking Resistance list building begins with her, 5A certainly does, but for the rest...I'm not so sure. It depends what the list is trying to do. For what I'm trying to do, I think I'd rather have a T-70.

I'm all ears for differing opinions which involve table time playing with her (not against) and aren't 5A. Calculator headsim stuff can stay home. I wouldn't be surprised to be wrong.

11 minutes ago, gennataos said:

aren't 5A.

Oh 😔

Yeah I'm not sure how awesome she is. Pairs well with Ronith and Optics. But as you say, she can't actually punish anyone for being ignored

8 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Oh 😔

Yeah I'm not sure how awesome she is. Pairs well with Ronith and Optics. But as you say, she can't actually punish anyone for being ignored

Humor me:

Isn't the point that if she was a t70, people wouldnt ignore her, and then the t70 would die?

Thus, with optics, she punches as a t70 /w focus (roughly), faster, with higher uptime, and isnt worth shooting?

12 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

Humor me:

Isn't the point that if she was a t70, people wouldnt ignore her, and then the t70 would die?

Thus, with optics, she punches as a t70 /w focus (roughly), faster, with higher uptime, and isnt worth shooting?

I think it comes down to list composition and what that list is trying to do. My lens is heavily biased, because it always includes Poe. I need stuff which can protect Poe and takes heat off of him, she does neither.

I just want to see what other folks are doing with her aside from 5A.

13 minutes ago, gennataos said:

I think it comes down to list composition and what that list is trying to do. My lens is heavily biased, because it always includes Poe. I need stuff which can protect Poe and takes heat off of him, she does neither.

I just want to see what other folks are doing with her aside from 5A.

Zizi is part of all my Resistance list building. Especially in the quality/salad builds. I don't build Resistance with Poe outside of Poe3A, but I've kinda moved away from considering that.

59 minutes ago, gennataos said:

I'm all ears for differing opinions which involve table time playing with her (not against) and aren't 5A. Calculator headsim stuff can stay home. I wouldn't be surprised to be wrong.

I have run Zizi a bunch of times now. Gain is a dangerous word. I regularly opt into R1 jousts with 4 dice guns and come out ahead.

Zizi is absolutely undercosted. Just like all the i5 RZ2As. I genuinely wish Lulo was in hyper instead of Zizi.

Thing that doesnt die easily and chips at things is way less fun than thing that throws red dice and dies more easily.

11 hours ago, dsul413 said:

So aces lists should also not be strong because its one play style in a list, even if the ships are different chassis? Because bringing only aces should also probably open a player up to hard counters too. That may be included in this "spam" discussion but I'm not sure it is.

I would say yes, actually. I also think this is why the devs dropped the price of their hard counter across the board — nerfs only do so much, so they buffed their counters this time instead.

It’s also why I think this season’s extended meta will be much more interesting than anyone wants to give it credit for

2 hours ago, Boom Owl said:

Archetypes that I enjoy:

- Ace Ace Ace - one in quotes though

- Ace Ace Squad Squad

- Ace Squad Squad Gang

- Ace Squad Squad Squad Gang

- Ace Squad Squad Squad Squad Gang

- Ace + Squad x6

- Ace Ace Ace Ace - all in quotes though

- Squad x5

- Squad x6

- Squad x7

- Squad x8

- Ace Ace Chonk

- Chonk + Squad x7

I feel a little silly for asking, but did I miss a memo? What’s the difference between squad and gang? I have a feeling same team, but I’m not sure yet.

1 hour ago, theBitterFig said:

Somewhere in there is the "sweet spot" where you can fly Aces or Generics (even Spam Generics).

SAME TEAM

And I think we do agree, my point just comes across a lot stronger than I mean it to, as it often happens due to 3 pages of clarifications 😛

1 hour ago, gennataos said:

@Stay OT Leader brought up (what I think is) a good point in that abominable TLT/Optics thread, which I refuse to bump. I've played Zizi a fair amount and I don't know if she's really all that undercosted. She's a 2-die gun with an amazing ability which is primarily a defensive upgrade. She's a bad target points fortress that doesn't really punish your opponent much for ignoring her and can play a situational role as an end game ship. I started off thinking Resistance list building begins with her, 5A certainly does, but for the rest...I'm not so sure. It depends what the list is trying to do. For what I'm trying to do, I think I'd rather have a T-70.

I'm all ears for differing opinions which involve table time playing with her (not against) and aren't 5A. Calculator headsim stuff can stay home. I wouldn't be surprised to be wrong.

Yeah exactly this.

Hey, wow, you’ve got a 2 dice ship that’s hard to kill. Uh... congratulations?

I think 5A is going to struggle in HS. No Lulo and no Crack Shot (plus swarms of 3 agility ships that got big points reductions) means they’re going to be much less offensively effective than players are used to. Zizi does nothing to help that.

2 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

I don't quite agree with @ClassicalMoser about whether spam lists should be weaker as a design goal, but some part of it makes sense. A spam list is, kinda, a one-trick pony.

What if you're spamming a well rounded ship? T65s aren't too slow, have some hp, but not too many, agility, but not too much, good offense, but not overwhelming. It's a pretty well rounded ship, so spamming it means you're spamming the one-trick of... well-roundedness?

What if I brought zizi with optics AND t70s (and kaz), and treated zizi like a t70 with up time that my opponent shouldnt even bother shooting, and if they do, they wasted their time? (literally, a better t70)?

4 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

What if I brought zizi with optics AND t70s (and kaz), and treated zizi like a t70 with up time that my opponent shouldnt even bother shooting, and if they do, they wasted their time? (literally, a better t70)?

It's only better if you didn't want them to shoot at that particular T70 in the first place.

I think there's also a very strong argument that a T70 has better uptime for shots that matter. The 1-straight/banks lets them keep their guns on target longer, guns that are bigger than even an Optics enhanced RZ2. Zizi shots from range 3 while running away and/or resetting from a disengagement turn are exactly the kind of shots I'm most willing to absorb.

12 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

What if I brought zizi with optics AND t70s (and kaz), and treated zizi like a t70 with up time that my opponent shouldnt even bother shooting, and if they do, they wasted their time? (literally, a better t70)?

Basically this. What if I brought a bunch of i5ish ships and none of them died easily or were that expensive and the clock belonged to me.

13 minutes ago, Stay OT Leader said:

no Crack Shot (plus swarms of 3 agility ships that got big points reductions) means they’re going to be much less offensively effective than players are used to. Zizi does nothing to help that.

@gennataos exactly this

1 hour ago, Tlfj200 said:

Isn't the point that if she was a t70, people wouldnt ignore her, and then the t70 would die?

Thus, with optics, she punches as a t70 /w focus (roughly), faster, with higher uptime, and isnt worth shooting?

I don't follow.

Talking only about the 3agility ships that likely dominate hyperspace meta: A 3dice gun has the inherent advantage of potentially putting 3-4 hits on the table and requires a lot more luck to survive with just dice variance.

2dice guns can't overwhelm defenses in that way. It is always a possibility to deal 0 damage, despite taking the correct choices and firing at the correct ship etc. and that is an inherent disadvantage.

That is why you can more often ignore an Awing compared to a T70. Treating Zizi like a T70 (what does that even mean?) does not add a red die.

Just to make sure: Zizi is an amazing Awing, easily the best. But is a single Awing still relevant? Are 5 still relevant? Definitely not in extended, and maybe not even in the current hyperspace.

8 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

Basically this. What if I brought a bunch of i5ish ships and none of them died easily or were that expensive and the clock belonged to me.

This squad almost universally has worse overall firepower and worse combined firepower (ships are more likely to be heading off on different directions) than a block of low initiative jousters. I'm not saying it's a bad squad, but it's clearly a different kind of squad altogether. You're saying "what if I played a bunch of pocket aces instead of a jousting squad?"

47 minutes ago, RStan said:

Zizi is part of all my Resistance list building. Especially in the quality/salad builds. I don't build Resistance with Poe outside of Poe3A, but I've kinda moved away from considering that.

I've come to the opinion the Poe + 3A was never more than "okay", primarily because the A-Wings can't effectively protect and take heat off of Poe.

Zizi used with salad lists makes sense, but I'm not sure what she's doing that Greer didn't do in a similar role previously.

40 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

I have run Zizi a bunch of times now. Gain is a dangerous word. I regularly opt into R1 jousts with 4 dice guns and come out ahead.

Zizi is absolutely undercosted. Just like all the i5 RZ2As. I genuinely wish Lulo was in hyper instead of Zizi.

Thing that doesnt die easily and chips at things is way less fun than thing that throws red dice and dies more easily.

What are you jousting and why are they shooting Zizi? Something being fun or not doesn't make something undercosted.

28 minutes ago, Stay OT Leader said:

Hey, wow, you’ve got a 2 dice ship that’s hard to kill. Uh... congratulations?

This is where I've arrived (thus far). She's a "feels bad" ship that is kind of "there". 😕

19 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

What if I brought zizi with optics AND t70s (and kaz), and treated zizi like a t70 with up time that my opponent shouldnt even bother shooting, and if they do, they wasted their time? (literally, a better t70)?

She's not a T-70, though.

11 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

Basically this. What if I brought a bunch of i5ish ships and none of them died easily or were that expensive and the clock belonged to me.

She dies real easy to an I6, particularly if that I6 brought friends to party with Zizi.

I'm not suggesting she's bad by any stretch. I'm not really even suggesting that she's appropriately costed. I just think she's good, but only situationally great...not always great.

4 minutes ago, gennataos said:

She's a "feels bad" ship

I think this is why people are saying she's under-costed. It's not so much that she's getting all that work done as that whenever you do decide to shoot at her, you're basically wasting your time. Kind of a similar game experience to Rebel Fenn or a TIE Defender, but without the support tricks or punch. She's just annoying.

No one's saying she'll ever be the right target choice, but sometimes she's the only one you have in arc, and there's an inherently game-warping effect of a ship always being the "wrong" target choice, especially if that ship is I5 (even if it's not dealing much damage).

These are observations in the argument, not arguments themselves. I don't have any play experience with her so I don't have an opinion.

2 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

A spam list is, kinda, a one-trick pony.

I'm not sure that word means what you think it means.

33 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

What if you're spamming a well rounded ship? T65s aren't too slow, have some hp, but not too many, agility, but not too much, good offense, but not overwhelming. It's a pretty well rounded ship, so spamming it means you're spamming the one-trick of... well-roundedness?

I did mention that those kinds of spam lists would be closest to good. Still you're better off mixing up initiatives to add some dedicated blockers and some better endgame ships than playing copy-pasta with Blue Squadron Escorts.

All that said, I think people have taken this as a dogma rather than as the heuristic it was intended to be. The original idea was "breakpoints don't matter at all, because if a spam list is good, another list with that ship is probably better already." That got expanded out to "theoretically, spam lists shouldn't be good, because that's usually indicative of an underpriced ship in any context."

Neither of these are necessarily universal laws though, and they really didn't intend them as such.