2 hours ago, Stay OT Leader said:

I was really cool on Vonreg until I saw PDC and being able to keep all my dice when my rubbish arc-dodging failed to work, so I could at least shoot my way out, made the ship make sense.

I figured I’d pay 58-60pts for Vonreg with Composure and PDC.

With Composure gone I’m almost entirely off Vonreg anyway. That TL on the thrusters actually reminds me a lot of E-Wings crappy linked actions. You spend so much time Focus/Boosting with aces and he can’t do it.

wait stop the people thinking FO is top squad can't hear this yet its too early

I want at least a month of desperate FO 3 ace builds before it's relegated back to meme squads

2 minutes ago, Micanthropyre said:

wait stop the people thinking FO is top squad can't hear this yet its too early

I want at least a month of desperate FO 3 ace builds before it's relegated back to meme squads

FO is really good! It’s just that the /ba is the worst ship in the faction by a good margin.

2 hours ago, Stay OT Leader said:

I was really cool on Vonreg until I saw PDC and being able to keep all my dice when my rubbish arc-dodging failed to work, so I could at least shoot my way out, made the ship make sense.

I figured I’d pay 58-60pts for Vonreg with Composure and PDC.

With Composure gone I’m almost entirely off Vonreg anyway. That TL on the thrusters actually reminds me a lot of E-Wings crappy linked actions. You spend so much time Focus/Boosting with aces and he can’t do it.

I think people have to treat him like Vader instead of Soontir and glue afterburners onto him to get the boost, roll, focus combo in sticky situations. Or boost to range 1 and get lock and focus for the big hit. Being at range 1 means the bullseye is active, and now they are strained, depleted next round and forced into blue moves or suffer consequences, so can take advantage with PA to turn behind them and keep the pressure. Great for the 1v1, 1v2 end game situations.

With Vader, you set up his 2 or 3 big hits in the game, then mostly just keep him alive by burning to safety. You are not constantly keeping you 76+ pt ship in a dogfight tallon rolling etc. Vonreg should be played the same way. He is no inquisitor even though he has those blue hard 1s.

Elusive with 2 green dice and a focus is very near 3 green and a focus. So feel free to 5 straight and burn to safety, not get blocked doing a hard 1 clearing your deplete/strain.

• 2 green with focus + elusive vs 3 red and a focus = .74 expected hits
• 3 green with focus vs 3 red with focus = .63 expected hits

At range 3, say Vonreg took a strain now wants to get out of town with a 5 straight, not clearing strain, and AB boosts away.

• 3 green with focus + elusive vs 3 red with a focus = .35 expected hits
• 4 green with focus vs 3 red with a focus = .35 expected hits

Major Vonreg (57)
Elusive (3)
Pattern Analyzer (5)
Afterburners (6)
Total: 71

LW works with the fine tuned thrusters, if you take a strain, you are probably attacking and use it for offense, or take a deplete and you are most likely defending and use it for defense.

Major Vonreg (57)
Lone Wolf (5)
Afterburners (6)
Total: 68

From my whole two games with the BA I agree that it definitely doesn't work like the standard double-reposition interceptor type. Using the chasis ability means you're morphing into a worse ship in some way and have to make sure that the benefit outweighs it. Vonreg against other 6's with the bid just felt sad.

I think Holo may be able to get around this given enough friends around to infect with the downgrade tokens, but I haven't tried that one yet. My next run with Vonreg may be as a mag pulse delivery platform so at least when he downgrades himself to get the double mods he's forcing an opponent to do the same.

2 hours ago, Flurpy said:

Im legitimately thinking about just buying 7 and going all in.

SAME TEAM

A

M
E

T

E

A
M

10 minutes ago, wurms said:

I think people have to treat him like Vader instead of Soontir and glue afterburners onto him to get the boost, roll, focus combo in sticky situations. Or boost to range 1 and get lock and focus for the big hit. Being at range 1 means the bullseye is active, and now they are strained, depleted next round and forced into blue moves or suffer consequences, so take advantage with PA to turn behind them and keep the pressure on.

With Vader, you set up his 2 or 3 big hits in the game, then mostly just keep him alive by burning to safety. You are not constantly keeping you 76+ pt ship in a dogfight tallon rolling etc. Vonreg should be played the same way. He is no inquisitor even though he has those blue hard 1s.

Elusive with 2 green dice and a focus is very near 3 green and a focus. So feel free to 5 straight and burn to safety, not get blocked doing a hard 1 clearing your deplete/strain.

• 2 green with focus + elusive vs 3 red and a focus = .74 expected hits
• 3 green with focus vs 3 red with focus = .63 expected hits

At range 3, say Vonreg took a strain now wants to get out of town with a 5 straight, not clearing strain, and AB boosts away.

• 3 green with focus + elusive vs 3 red with a focus = .35 expected hits
• 4 green with focus vs 3 red with a focus = .35 expected hits

Major Vonreg (57)
Elusive (3)
Pattern Analyzer (5)
Afterburners (6)
Total: 71

LW works with the fine tuned thrusters, if you take a strain, you are probably attacking and use it for offense, or take a deplete and you are most likely defending and use it for defense.

Major Vonreg (57)
Lone Wolf (5)
Afterburners (6)
Total: 68

I think most people in this thread are looking squarely at Hyperspace, so Afterburners is out.

30 minutes ago, Micanthropyre said:

get out of here with those T70s you can't fool me

Oh, I'm not trying to fool anyone. You'll see me coming....

3 minutes ago, gennataos said:

I think most people in this thread are looking squarely at Hyperspace, so Afterburners is out.

what's afterburners? Sounds like an extended problem.

Just now, jagsba said:

what's afterburners? Sounds like an extended problem.

Strikers and reapers, the Imperial vector-changing saviors.

Not looking at lists that are good, but at stuff people will bring: Relevant bids.

i0: GAR GOR (nope)

i1: FOcho, matters

i2: XXXXX, matters

i3: lowest snap shot carriers? (My tiny meta only, hopefully?)

i4: fearless fangs

i5: can’t outbid Boba Fenn, who cares

i6: can’t outbid Boba Fenn, who cares.

i5 and 6 are the same as it ever was, but even a single point bid at 1, 2, and 4 has a very good chance of being relevant.

18 minutes ago, wurms said:

I think people have to treat him like Vader instead of Soontir and glue afterburners onto him to get the boost, roll, focus combo in sticky situations. Or boost to range 1 and get lock and focus for the big hit. Being at range 1 means the bullseye is active, and now they are strained, depleted next round and forced into blue moves or suffer consequences, so can take advantage with PA to turn behind them and keep the pressure. Great for the 1v1, 1v2 end game situations.

With Vader, you set up his 2 or 3 big hits in the game, then mostly just keep him alive by burning to safety. You are not constantly keeping you 76+ pt ship in a dogfight tallon rolling etc. Vonreg should be played the same way. He is no inquisitor even though he has those blue hard 1s.

Elusive with 2 green dice and a focus is very near 3 green and a focus. So feel free to 5 straight and burn to safety, not get blocked doing a hard 1 clearing your deplete/strain.

• 2 green with focus + elusive vs 3 red and a focus = .74 expected hits
• 3 green with focus vs 3 red with focus = .63 expected hits

At range 3, say Vonreg took a strain now wants to get out of town with a 5 straight, not clearing strain, and AB boosts away.

• 3 green with focus + elusive vs 3 red with a focus = .35 expected hits
• 4 green with focus vs 3 red with a focus = .35 expected hits

Major Vonreg (57)
Elusive (3)
Pattern Analyzer (5)
Afterburners (6)
Total: 71

LW works with the fine tuned thrusters, if you take a strain, you are probably attacking and use it for offense, or take a deplete and you are most likely defending and use it for defense.

Major Vonreg (57)
Lone Wolf (5)
Afterburners (6)
Total: 68

That’s not a bad shout, I hadn’t actually considered Afterburners. That’s probs my better than DPC.

22 minutes ago, AEIllingworth said:

i3: lowest snap shot carriers? (My tiny meta only, hopefully?)

Mining guild ties snap at i2

phoenix squad snaps at i1

3 hours ago, Stay OT Leader said:

I was really cool on Vonreg until I saw PDC and being able to keep all my dice when my rubbish arc-dodging failed to work, so I could at least shoot my way out, made the ship make sense.

I figured I’d pay 58-60pts for Vonreg with Composure and PDC.

With Composure gone I’m almost entirely off Vonreg anyway. That TL on the thrusters actually reminds me a lot of E-Wings crappy linked actions. You spend so much time Focus/Boosting with aces and he can’t do it.

How many high init pilots (I5 or better and seeing play) can focus boost?

Focus -> boost:
Soontir, Kylo, Wedge/Luke (s-foils), Poe

Boost -> focus:
Guri (calculate and r1 focus), Fenn, Vader (afterburners), Duchess (afterburners, with ailerons to assist), Grand Inq, all RZ-2s (with same double repo limit as ba), Sun Fac (ish?), all aethersprites.

Of these, the only ones that have a natural double mod in one turn are Soontir with TC and ability, Luke, Poe, Guri with TL and ability, and of course Vader.

I'm sure I'm missing some pilots in the lists above, but is the ba that inflexible? Can limited double repo, can double mod. Natural 3 gun if you're blocked (sorry Vader). Would I6 Vonreg be terrible at 63 points with afterburners? Or Holo at 60 points even, and can pitch the strain/deplete to a friend? Now I'm boost, TL, focus in one turn. Or boost, BR, focus in one turn, hopefully out of arc.

Might not be worth the points. I don't think the ba is a bad chassis though.

Edit: chasing my kid around the house and @wurms beat me to it.

In that list: all the good ones

32 minutes ago, AEIllingworth said:

i3: lowest snap shot carriers? (My tiny meta only, hopefully?)

Init 3 seems like generics trying to out-Init lower generics, and bid is... medium?

2 hours ago, RStan said:

That's moderately surprising as that bid won't matter against i5s or i6s. What do you think will be so dominate or consistently used at i4 within Hyperspace to create a bid higher than 2 pts at i4?

Black T70's, Skulls+Joy/Kad, Genesis Red w/Torps, Greer, etc.

They all appreciate PS killing the I3 generics, and all appreciate agency.

I'm expecting plenty of mid-range straight up ignoring the I5/I6 game.

14 minutes ago, Stay OT Leader said:

In that list: all the good ones

I agree. I pulled from at.c for it because I couldn’t recall everyone. More an exercise for me to look at what has it. Time will tell whether the versatility of the /ba ability is useful enough at their current cost.

I think Holo will be the best of the bunch at current prices, personally.

Am I the only one eagerly fielding DPC on Vonreg?

Pros of Afterburners over DPC:

• Totally free boost twice a game.
• Can Boost then BR in a preferred order.
• More likely to 5K, and might pack Proud Tradition to wield it (although Proud Trad generally stay with Holo or any of the TIE/FO's or gunner TIE/SF's). Can get absolutely wild with Pattern Analyzer. (5K, Pattern, Proud Focus, Afterburners. Can easily get full mods no strain/deplete R1 of target.) Proud Trad wouldn't hurt him too much, considering that like the TIE/FO, focusing is the last of his actions and he has blue turns.
• More options for disengaging/engaging, fewer self-nerfs, generally more unpredictable.

Cons of Afterburners over DPC:

• Does not work when going slow, and thus has a less general applicability to DPC. A very strong advantage of the TIE/Ba is its ability to go slow and knife fight like a Starviper. Engaging at fast speeds is what the Silencer in the list is typically for, and although Vonreg often likes to surprise with speed and shenanigans, he isn't just going to let all those tasty rocks breaking the enemy formation go to waste. The area denial of "don't come in too fast!" is pretty good.
• Does not synergize with Daredevil. Sure, your extra boost increases action efficiency, but quite often the single Daredevil (off going straight, banking in, or banking out) is enough to dodge and get a good engage. Also, problem with speed again, considering how often the Daredevil loadouts enjoy going slow.
• No panic button for tractor, jam, disarm, ion, or Mag Pulse alphas. You're just stuck with those tokens, even though you'd much rather take a stress than have a -1 agi when you see an I6 moving after you, much rather stress than lose that kill shot bc some chump jammed, much enjoy blasting through an electro-proton bomb and still shoot if you're clear (resign self to getting ioned, but realize that the odds of getting double disarmed are not too deadly), not care at all about static discharge vanes or certain ion effects, and really enjoy keeping an offensive die even if you were mag pulse your lock/green token away.
• Really sucks when you move first. DPC Vonreg can happily count to 200 if he so chooses bc he can regen off the enemy I6 catching him and just let his friends handle the problem. Sure, this point might be a little overblown on my DPC Vonreg because he is running with a bid, but it is still a small bid nevertheless. Any other mod Vonreg is hoping more strongly to bid sufficiently or not get caught in a bad matchup. If I'm counting to 200 with a non-DPC Vonreg, it will be in an area-denial list a la Kylo 2 U or Ace + Swarm.
• Harder to bait with. A non-DPC Vonreg at half can be left at half and ignored for the rest of the game. Not going to draw any aggro to cause the opponent to make a mistake, bc they know he will just run until he can re-engage. Not only is DPC degenerate in regenerating back half points, but the "he's really 6 health" thought gets to a lot of opponents and he can let the rest of the list sneak up behind.

I know it's a matter of preference, but I don't think DPC is overcosted at all.

1 hour ago, Bucknife said:

I'm expecting plenty of mid-range straight up ignoring the I5/I6 game.

I expect them to ignore it to middling results, as they have in 2.0.

27 minutes ago, gennataos said:

I expect them to ignore it to middling results, as they have in 2.0.

Game's a little different now though.

I just beat a Boba/Emon list last night with XXXAA and I feel like I flew horribly. Opponent didn't fly incredibly but he did okay (did 3 damage with a single bomb, etc.) and it wasn't even super close. I still had 4 ships on the board and Boba was on 2 hull with a hull breach and damaged engine when time was called. Also I had a concussion locked onto him and he was beyond range 3 of all my ships.

I really think the viability of many different high-arc-count lists will give 2-ship lists a really hard time unless they have crazy health, mod stacking, or pre-maneuver repositioning tricks. More so in HYPErspace

Maybe Resistance 5s or Scum 6s will be a big problem for I4 lists, but I see most I5-6 lists being Ace and scrubs waaaay more than double/triple ace. In that case a squad of I4s can just kill the scrubs and then team up against the ace (who's probably been running for most of the game...)

Always in motion, the future is...

33 minutes ago, gennataos said:

I expect them to ignore it to middling results, as they have in 2.0.

All depends on the match-ups. HYPErspace is now the ultimate proving ground for @Biophysical's blog on tactics. IF generics can bully aces, it will completely re-shape the X-wing meta.

Here's the thing:

1) Bids work for any initiative level, and they always have.

2) The size of your bid is just a statement of how important moving first or last matters to you.

3) It's always a meta call what initiative you expect the most competition from (It was I5 at first, shifted more to I6, back closer to I5 recently, now might be more evenly spread)

4) Investing in higher initiative is better than investing in a bid for the same cost absent significant pilot abilities and present an existing pilot of that initiative on the chassis

5) I1 you can bid for first. I2 you don't bid. I3 you might start bidding for 2nd vs vultures, Omegas, Black Aces, etc. I4 you probably want a bid. Mag-Pulse PS Vader bids for 1st.

5 minutes ago, Q10fanatic said:

IF generics can bully aces, it will completely re-shape the X-wing meta.

5 Xs can easily bully the small amount of aces who remained after ban, in a format with no talents and modifications too..

28 minutes ago, Q10fanatic said:

All depends on the match-ups. HYPErspace is now the ultimate proving ground for @Biophysical's blog on tactics. IF generics can bully aces, it will completely re-shape the X-wing meta.

That 5th quality ship definitely matters, but it's not yet clear if it matters enough.

13 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

That 5th quality ship definitely matters, but it's not yet clear if it matters enough.

Have to test 5x against all the best Ace Jousters and Quad Aces to answer that question.

21 minutes ago, _iaco_ said:

5 Xs can easily bully the small amount of aces who remained after ban, in a format with no talents and modifications too..

Today I defeated 4x + Arvel with Kylo Vonreg Rivas (Hyperspace variant, with Instinctive Optic Torp Mag Pulse Kylo to stand in as the point fortress bc Supernat is illegal). 200 - 95.

Splitting with rocks is not an issue. Nor is looping around flinging torpedoes. Block or Mag Pulses really hurt X Wing damage output. The bullseye ability is not irrelevant, especially with K turns and talons. Banking in just before a rock and then br>>>daredevil is slippery.

Unlike against lower ship counts, Vonreg was, however, bound to get caught, but at that point only 1 full point X Wing and 2 halves of X Wings were left to deal with a full point Kylo in much better position. Kylo did not get shot at as he then removed an X nearly every turn until game end.

What really helps the TIE/ba is area denial. Again, no Ups or Supernat legal, so mega chonker 100 pts Kylo of a 4/3/4/2 statline cripples or disables whatever nastiness is incoming. It scares off a lot of things moving after him, and it has been performing consistently.