14 minutes ago, Brunas said:

This is something we did a decent amount of analysis on. I can go dig it up if you're interested.

Of course I'm interested!

It's still early on the format but I fear it will soon become a Boba Fenn party

Because I've actually had more success finding trade partners in this thread than anywhere else...

Seeking two more of these!

9 minutes ago, gennataos said:

Because I've actually had more success finding trade partners in this thread than anywhere else...

Seeking two more of these!

I HAVE 1! PM ME!

1 hour ago, svelok said:

You can have 6411 now, though.

Don't give away my secrets. I've got a couple weeks of people spamming ships before they realize you can have a little more ace

1 hour ago, GreenDragoon said:

What about the bid? Not important enough because passive Vader is likely to go to 200 anyway and Poe too? There are not too many i6 left (vonreg is..) who care about a bid, so maybe Fenn doesn't have to either?

Fenn 3 zealot didn't have a bid before

1 hour ago, Ablazoned said:

Oh, no no no. You're not bidding for your six...

...you're bidding for your ones.

TRUE

1 minute ago, jagsba said:

Fenn 3 zealot didn't have a bid before

Hmm... would it like to?

3 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Hmm... would it like to?

Like or need? Everything likes a bid. Fenn is more okay without it than a lot of other aces

1 hour ago, Cuz05 said:

Fair. I do think that variance and the clear need for both squads to be flown very tactically evens it out a lot more than it was before points changes. I'm sure you're well aware that 5A is not at all as easy as a lot of people think.... I imagine the match up can swing quite a lot on how well one player knows the other squad and how to cope with it.

Assuming they're equal? 5A has the agency advantage, I agree, but I think it's small enough not to be a major tilt.

The update has given more to the Fangs than the As as well ofc, which may be a new factor.

As someone who has played 5A to some okay success, this is a matchup I'd be very interested in playing. Everything you've said checks out, though I'd be really curious as to the list your mate was playing and see how it differs from mine.

For reference, this is what I'm taking to the table first (after I test out Republic, because I don't think they are as bad off as I initially thought):

Zizi Tlo (40)
Heroic (1)
Advanced Optics (4)

Ship total: 45 Half Points: 23 Threshold: 2

Greer Sonnel (36)
Heroic (1)
Advanced Optics (4)

Ship total: 41 Half Points: 21 Threshold: 2

Ronith Blario (34)
Heroic (1)
Advanced Optics (4)

Ship total: 39 Half Points: 20 Threshold: 2

Tallissan Lintra (36)
Heroic (1)

Ship total: 37 Half Points: 19 Threshold: 2

Blue Squadron Recruit (32)
Heroic (1)
Advanced Optics (4)

Ship total: 37 Half Points: 19 Threshold: 2


Total: 199

View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0: https://raithos.github.io/?f=Resistance&d=v8ZsZ200Z387X172WWW186Y270X172WWW186Y388X172WW186Y240X172WWWY301X172WW186&sn=Unnamed Squadron&obs=

Opting for Tali instead of an Optics Blue for the PS, especially because 1) spending the green token isn't an obvious choice at I5 unless you are Zizi and 2) Ronith likes spare focus tokens anyway.

It also helps a lot that I go to I5 with another ship.

6 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Hmm... would it like to?

4 Fang definitely like to get fearless on fenn.

6 points bid for either ps 1 or ps is also very liked.

The ps1 giving 3 less points each when destroyed it's amazing

21 minutes ago, Sunitsa said:

Of course I'm interested!

It's still early on the format but I fear it will soon become a Boba Fenn party

Here's Extended for the format: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1DEOJ1uPn2TaW8ooAOrSJligOVPQ9hqAb5K2ah9AcYa8/edit#gid=2042480759

Here's Hyperspace for the format: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1pZmi_QJEJ939Pi6QaaRhjQOu_RSoGUhz3pLYJ1Ffxxo/edit#gid=2042480759

The easiest way to compare them is probably going to be to look at the pilots tab. I don't know what criteria you'll want to try and compare based on, but the absolute most simple/naive has 58 pilots with at least 10 appearances in Extended, while that number is 79 in Hyperspace for a roughly equivalent number of lists (698 vs 668).

5 minutes ago, Brunas said:

Here's Extended for the format: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1DEOJ1uPn2TaW8ooAOrSJligOVPQ9hqAb5K2ah9AcYa8/edit#gid=2042480759

Here's Hyperspace for the format: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1pZmi_QJEJ939Pi6QaaRhjQOu_RSoGUhz3pLYJ1Ffxxo/edit#gid=2042480759

The easiest way to compare them is probably going to be to look at the pilots tab. I don't know what criteria you'll want to try and compare based on, but the absolute most simple/naive has 58 pilots with at least 10 appearances in Extended, while that number is 79 in Hyperspace for a roughly equivalent number of lists (698 vs 668).

Nice

36 minutes ago, Sunitsa said:

Of course I'm interested!

It's still early on the format but I fear it will soon become a Boba Fenn party

Keep in mind that you'd expect fewer in Hyperspace because of the lowered amount. Even just a roughly equal amount could be surprising. A higher amount is.

It's worth noting that there's a lot of assumptions being made directly comparing the data between those together. The big one being, that people brought roughly the same level of "serious" list to Hyperspace trials that they did to System Opens.

Also, it could be the case that we're missing all the diversity in Extended because we're missing a lot of the bottom tables from the UK system open. That's entirely possible (or even probable), but I would argue that if that is the case, it adds to the argument that "diversity" in extended is broadly speaking bad lists that lose to the higher power curve.

3 minutes ago, Brunas said:

Also, it could be the case that we're missing all the diversity in Extended because we're missing a lot of the bottom tables from the UK system open.

No so sure on that. If I remember correctly (so add a pinch of salt) from my own stuff where I only picked tournaments with 80% (but mostly fully filled out), Hyperspace was still more diverse by amount of different pilots, amount of different pilots above a threshold, and by different combinations of ships.

53 minutes ago, RStan said:

I think it helps that the factions that seem the strongest aren't factions full of force charged aces and that probably translates a bit to the "not head and shoulders above" others. Plus as we know, Seps aren't popular, no matter how effective, and Resistance might have so many options that aren't clearly better than others, it might be a bit before we find a "right choice" if there is one.

I can't decide if Boba-Fenn is going to be a real bogeyman but thats the leading candidate. I'm skeptical that any list outside of the obvious ones will be any good for Scum though. Dark horse for overpowered is Mag-Pulse Poe. Resistance does have a lot of really great pieces, and I don't think that the "best list" is obvious, so they kind of seem like the opposite of Scum: maybe a poor showing initially but as people work the puzzle over something cool will pop out. I'm honestly not well enough versed in Seps to comment either way, but looking at some of the lists people have posted they seem like they'll be fine.

1 hour ago, catachanninja said:

It feels like everything is close, when i listed rebels as my bottom faction on the cast, in my head, it wasn't an indictment on the faction so much as someone has to be last and I think it will be them. They still seem fine and I will likely play them because i want to put my cool falcon on the table as much as i possibly can. I put seps at the top, from what i can see, they have the closest bones to "things that were sucessful in last seasons extended" which is a pretty happy place to be. I think though, I can imagine a world where i can beat a separatist swarm with a rebel list that doesn't also fold to the field. So i'm back to being cautiously very optimistic about things.

I'm not used to such a sunny outlook from you, which only intensifies my fear that an S+ list will emerge.

4 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

No so sure on that. If I remember correctly (so add a pinch of salt) from my own stuff where I only picked tournaments with 80% (but mostly fully filled out), Hyperspace was still more diverse by amount of different pilots, amount of different pilots above a threshold, and by different combinations of ships.

Oh interesting, thanks. Also, this is something ATC should be able to do soon™, but until then we're stuck with spreadsheets.

Related question: It feels... not dishonest, but like it would be very easy to be someone who does a lot of stats collection, and then tells you how to feel about it. I know that I'm trying to be fair, but in an ideal world I'd want to provide it without commentary and just let people poke through it on their own. The problem is... I've seen what people do with raw data, and it certainly doesn't resemble anything that looks like analysis...

For example in this discussion, I'd like to be able to link these documents, give a few real/meaningful comparisons between the formats, and demonstrate that hyperspace is more "diverse" for my given definition of diverse. The problem is, I know how easy it would be to just doctor the definitions and thresholds for things to get whatever answer I want, so I don't trust it when other people give a huge amount of data, and knowing that no one will actually look at it, tell you the conclusions and how to feel.

What do?

1 minute ago, Brunas said:

I've seen what people do with raw data, and it certainly doesn't resemble anything that looks like analysis...

Quoting for emphasis

1 minute ago, Brunas said:

Related question: It feels... not dishonest, but like it would be very easy to be someone who does a lot of stats collection, and then tells you how to feel about it. I know that I'm trying to be fair, but in an ideal world I'd want to provide it without commentary and just let people poke through it on their own. The problem is... I've seen what people do with raw data, and it certainly doesn't resemble anything that looks like analysis...

Yes, I completely understand that. It is the reason I wrote so much on my methodology and justification, and describing the data. It's also the reason I stopped after wave3, because it's way too much work for something that's misinterpreted or intentionally misused all the time.

I tried to be impartial and unbiased (except for 5A because those should always be great and dissenting opinion is wrong). A side effect is that I don't understand faction loyalty or bias.

2 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

A side effect is that I don't understand faction loyalty or bias.

4 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

A side effect is that I don't understand faction loyalty or bias.

To be fair, those two aren't mutually inclusive. I have a strong loyalty, but I don't think I'm biased. If I'm wrong about that, it's because I'm biased.

10 minutes ago, Brunas said:

It's worth noting that there's a lot of assumptions being made directly comparing the data between those together. The big one being, that people brought roughly the same level of "serious" list to Hyperspace trials that they did to System Opens.

Also, it could be the case that we're missing all the diversity in Extended because we're missing a lot of the bottom tables from the UK system open. That's entirely possible (or even probable), but I would argue that if that is the case, it adds to the argument that "diversity" in extended is broadly speaking bad lists that lose to the higher power curve.

The comparison using pilots also assumes that lists contain roughly an equal number of unique pilots. TIE swarm being more popular in Hyperspace will change the number a little. Extended also had a lot more lists with generics: 3 Loks, 4 Phantoms, 3 Kriaxaxax, etc which will skew the number away from Extended. If the Summary tab is complete, you are using 4 tournaments vs 18, with the meta changing more often than just at points change (because of ship releases) this will also skew Hyperspace towards having greater diversity, as well as the regional metas playing a lot larger role in Hyperspace tournaments.

Lies, all of it.

15 minutes ago, Brunas said:

Oh interesting, thanks. Also, this is something ATC should be able to do soon™, but until then we're stuck with spreadsheets.

Related question: It feels... not dishonest, but like it would be very easy to be someone who does a lot of stats collection, and then tells you how to feel about it. I know that I'm trying to be fair, but in an ideal world I'd want to provide it without commentary and just let people poke through it on their own. The problem is... I've seen what people do with raw data, and it certainly doesn't resemble anything that looks like analysis...

For example in this discussion, I'd like to be able to link these documents, give a few real/meaningful comparisons between the formats, and demonstrate that hyperspace is more "diverse" for my given definition of diverse. The problem is, I know how easy it would be to just doctor the definitions and thresholds for things to get whatever answer I want, so I don't trust it when other people give a huge amount of data, and knowing that no one will actually look at it, tell you the conclusions and how to feel.

What do?

Get a phd

1 minute ago, jagsba said:

Get a phd

remind people of it constantly, demand ffg pay you

17 minutes ago, Micanthropyre said:

I can't decide if Boba-Fenn is going to be a real bogeyman but thats the leading candidate. I'm skeptical that any list outside of the obvious ones will be any good for Scum though. Dark horse for overpowered is Mag-Pulse Poe. Resistance does have a lot of really great pieces, and I don't think that the "best list" is obvious, so they kind of seem like the opposite of Scum: maybe a poor showing initially but as people work the puzzle over something cool will pop out. I'm honestly not well enough versed in Seps to comment either way, but looking at some of the lists people have posted they seem like they'll be fine.

I'm not used to such a sunny outlook from you, which only intensifies my fear that an S+ list will emerge.

Alex had 12ish hours of list building before vacation and he didn't find it, so it probably doesn't exist

16 minutes ago, Brunas said:

What do?

In principle, define the criteria and discuss the justification, and add in controls before looking at the data.

4 minutes ago, Micanthropyre said:

Lies, all of it.

I could try to go into possible explanations. But I'm not going to redo the work to provide numbers, so personally, I have to drop it there.

6 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

A side effect is that I don't understand faction loyalty or bias.