This thing really moves.

Anecdote: I played four Fearless Skulls vs Heroptic 5A last night. Lasted about 20min.

Green dice have a very large say in that match up.

22 minutes ago, Hoarder of Garlic Bread said:

it ironically increases diversity

And entirely predicted and expected. Also already demonstrated a year ago when Hyperspace had way fewer options than wave5, but a larger diversity than extended.

4 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

And entirely predicted and expected. Also already demonstrated a year ago when Hyperspace had way fewer options than wave5, but a larger diversity than extended.

Are you talking about the HS dominated by rebel beef? That Hyperspace had more options?!?

4 hours ago, Cuz05 said:

Anecdote: I played four Fearless Skulls vs Heroptic 5A last night. Lasted about 20min.

Thing is, I have no idea who you're saying got curbstomped in that match.

4 hours ago, Cuz05 said:

This thing really moves.

Anecdote: I played four Fearless Skulls vs Heroptic 5A last night. Lasted about 20min.

Green dice have a very large say in that match up.

1 minute ago, Ablazoned said:

Thing is, I have no idea who you're saying got curbstomped in that match.

Same.

18 minutes ago, Sunitsa said:

Are you talking about the HS dominated by rebel beef? That Hyperspace had more options?!?

Both wave 2 and 3 had more diversity by most metrics than extended, yes. It's not like beef wasn't in extended.

1 minute ago, Ablazoned said:

Thing is, I have no idea who you're saying got curbstomped in that match.

Usually it should be the skulls, but there might have been some bad luck for the 5As? There should be one Fang going down per turn, in principle.

Haha, teasing out the predictions.

Horrible dice for the A Wings, they were the ones stomped.

I don't think 5A crushes 4 Skulls. 3 of the A Wings will be lower init most of the time, which is huge in that match up. I boxed and killed Tallie on the 1st engage, which gave me even more Init advantage as well.

Largely shooting 1st with the Fangs goes a long way towards negating Optic consistency.

Definitely very green reliant either way though, both are well capable of shrugging off each other's ranged attacks with favourable dice.

Fenn plus 3 Recruits is incredibly uphill though, it hangs way too much on Fenn. ALL of the As can just do what they want vs the Recruits. It's horrible.

Note: I've played against 5A quite a lot, it's one of my mates favourite lists. I have picked up some useful tactics....

Just now, GreenDragoon said:

Both wave 2 and 3 had more diversity by most metrics than extended, yes. It's not like beef wasn't in extended.

I don't remember what exactly was in waves of 2.0, I'm assuming you are talking about after last January point changes since before of the start of the Hyperspace trials it wasn't really played.

The difference was that Extended had checks on beef (phantoms for example) in HS the beef was a tier above anything else. Granted, it took time before most people realized it, especially in the UK where for some reasons (I blame PhilGC) people kept on playing terrible resistance lists, but claiming last year HS meta was varied is bold.

The whole "fewer choices make up for more diversity" is wishful thinking... Xwing is a game where there will always be better choices than others, and this is even more blatant in a format where the choice are so restricted, especially when FFG didn't even bother to remove all the previous best choices

1 minute ago, Sunitsa said:

but claiming last year HS meta was varied is bold.

The whole "fewer choices make up for more diversity" is wishful thinking...

But... all the data that we had indicated that hyperspace was more diverse than extended. It's not a matter of opinion or wishful thinking. I don't care enough to dig through this very thread, but we discussed this - with the numbers - on various occasions.

8 minutes ago, Cuz05 said:

Horrible dice for the A Wings, they were the ones stomped.

I don't think 5A crushes 4 Skulls. 3 of the A Wings will be lower init most of the time, which is huge in that match up. I boxed and killed Tallie on the 1st engage, which gave me even more Init advantage as well.

It's not a forgiving matchup, but it should be more onesided in the other direction

Personally I often struggled with Fenn as he has it so much easier to get that range 1. And it's super tight and stressful because a small mistake leads to 5dice incoming!

15 minutes ago, Cuz05 said:

Fenn plus 3 Recruits is incredibly uphill though, it hangs way too much on Fenn. ALL of the As can just do what they want vs the Recruits. It's horrible.

You can have 6411 now, though.

39 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Usually it should be the skulls, but there might have been some bad luck for the 5As? There should be one Fang going down per turn, in principle.

Two fearless skulls that catch a lower-init a-wing at range 1 simply evaporate it.

3 minutes ago, svelok said:

You can have 6411 now, though.

What about the bid? Not important enough because passive Vader is likely to go to 200 anyway and Poe too? There are not too many i6 left (vonreg is..) who care about a bid, so maybe Fenn doesn't have to either?

5 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

It's not a forgiving matchup, but it should be more onesided in the other direction

Personally I often struggled with Fenn as he has it so much easier to get that range 1. And it's super tight and stressful because a small mistake leads to 5dice incoming!

Fair. I do think that variance and the clear need for both squads to be flown very tactically evens it out a lot more than it was before points changes. I'm sure you're well aware that 5A is not at all as easy as a lot of people think.... I imagine the match up can swing quite a lot on how well one player knows the other squad and how to cope with it.

Assuming they're equal? 5A has the agency advantage, I agree, but I think it's small enough not to be a major tilt.

The update has given more to the Fangs than the As as well ofc, which may be a new factor.

1 minute ago, Cuz05 said:

The update has given more to the Fangs than the As as well ofc, which may be a new factor.

By the way, was it with both new pilots?

7 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

What about the bid? Not important enough because passive Vader is likely to go to 200 anyway and Poe too? There are not too many i6 left (vonreg is..) who care about a bid, so maybe Fenn doesn't have to either?

Oh, no no no. You're not bidding for your six...

...you're bidding for your ones.

listening to the episode to make sure I didn't say anything incriminating, @Brunas cut off a great ramble when he was troubleshooting the audio and unplugged everything to trouble shoot. Speaking of troubleshooting, imagine yelling at someone for two hours and finding out you were the cause of the problem and not even offering an apology.

28 minutes ago, Sunitsa said:

The whole "fewer choices make up for more diversity" is wishful thinking... Xwing is a game where there will always be better choices than others, and this is even more blatant in a format where the choice are so restricted, especially when FFG didn't even bother to remove all the previous best choices

I mean, the assumption "fewer choices make up for more diversity" doesnt have to be true, but it certainly looks like it will be for *this* hyperspace over current extended.

When we looked t krayt cup banning/pairing, and @Brunas asked me to create the 7 lists (1 per faction) for the friday tryhard, we had basically the exact same lists in extended. We also banned the exact same lists. Basically, boring.

Maybe hyperspace will settle to a clear echelon of lists and nothing else, but i suspect it wont, or to the extent there's an S-tier, the A-tier will be very close in power level (and potentially similarly for A vs B)

1 minute ago, Tlfj200 said:

I mean, the assumption "fewer choices make up for more diversity" doesnt have to be true, but it certainly looks like it will be for *this* hyperspace over current extended.

When we looked t krayt cup banning/pairing, and @Brunas asked me to create the 7 lists (1 per faction) for the friday tryhard, we had basically the exact same lists in extended. We also banned the exact same lists. Basically, boring.

Maybe hyperspace will settle to a clear echelon of lists and nothing else, but i suspect it wont, or to the extent there's an S-tier, the A-tier will be very close in power level (and potentially similarly for A vs B)

Playing X-wing long enough has taught me to be cynical about everything, the fear that me and a few of my friends share, is that there is an S+ list out there that will relentlessly bully everything until next points. It doesn't look like it so far, but absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

11 minutes ago, catachanninja said:

Playing X-wing long enough has taught me to be cynical about everything, the fear that me and a few of my friends share, is that there is an S+ list out there that will relentlessly bully everything until next points. It doesn't look like it so far, but absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

Resistance and Seps look like they have the clearist candidates for that... and even then, I'm skeptical they're head and shoulders above (or that I'm even correct that they're as good as they are).

1 minute ago, Tlfj200 said:

Resistance and Seps look like they have the clearist candidates for that... and even then, I'm skeptical they're head and shoulders above (or that I'm even correct that they're as good as they are).

It feels like everything is close, when i listed rebels as my bottom faction on the cast, in my head, it wasn't an indictment on the faction so much as someone has to be last and I think it will be them. They still seem fine and I will likely play them because i want to put my cool falcon on the table as much as i possibly can. I put seps at the top, from what i can see, they have the closest bones to "things that were sucessful in last seasons extended" which is a pretty happy place to be. I think though, I can imagine a world where i can beat a separatist swarm with a rebel list that doesn't also fold to the field. So i'm back to being cautiously very optimistic about things.

I have not done any deep dives into hyperspace list building yet, but every squad I come across that seems really good has clear weaknesses that seem exploitable.

13 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

Resistance and Seps look like they have the clearist candidates for that... and even then, I'm skeptical they're head and shoulders above (or that I'm even correct that they're as good as they are).

I think it helps that the factions that seem the strongest aren't factions full of force charged aces and that probably translates a bit to the "not head and shoulders above" others. Plus as we know, Seps aren't popular, no matter how effective, and Resistance might have so many options that aren't clearly better than others, it might be a bit before we find a "right choice" if there is one.

33 minutes ago, catachanninja said:

listening to the episode to make sure I didn't say anything incriminating, @Brunas cut off a great ramble when he was troubleshooting the audio and unplugged everything to trouble shoot. Speaking of troubleshooting, imagine yelling at someone for two hours and finding out you were the cause of the problem and not even offering an apology.

you like the abuse

8 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

I have not done any deep dives into hyperspace list building yet, but every squad I come across that seems really good has clear weaknesses that seem exploitable.

just don't have weaknesses 4head

1 hour ago, Sunitsa said:

I don't remember what exactly was in waves of 2.0, I'm assuming you are talking about after last January point changes since before of the start of the Hyperspace trials it wasn't really played.

The difference was that Extended had checks on beef (phantoms for example) in HS the beef was a tier above anything else. Granted, it took time before most people realized it, especially in the UK where for some reasons (I blame PhilGC) people kept on playing terrible resistance lists, but claiming last year HS meta was varied is bold.

The whole "fewer choices make up for more diversity" is wishful thinking... Xwing is a game where there will always be better choices than others, and this is even more blatant in a format where the choice are so restricted, especially when FFG didn't even bother to remove all the previous best choices

This is something we did a decent amount of analysis on. I can go dig it up if you're interested.

32 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

I mean, the assumption "fewer choices make up for more diversity" doesnt have to be true

Held true for the early hyperspace formats until Soontir was invited and it just became Extended lite. It isn't by definition true, but it's a general trend.

40 minutes ago, catachanninja said:

listening to the episode to make sure I didn't say anything incriminating, @Brunas cut off a great ramble when he was troubleshooting the audio and unplugged everything to trouble shoot. Speaking of troubleshooting, imagine yelling at someone for two hours and finding out you were the cause of the problem and not even offering an apology.

I refuse to believe Chris edited any of that

15 minutes ago, Transmogrifier said:

I refuse to believe Chris edited any of that

He didn't edit it, he just unplugged the sound input trying to find the thing that HE broke.