Bottom got massively better. Which means they picked something further up as baseline. Which IMO means power creep.

6 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Change my view: This points update is almost a textbook case of power creep.

This is kind of where I'm coming from above. There is possibly now a bigger hole in the middle, for those not quite aces who went neither up nor down and have not been quite good enough for a little while already.

It's one of the few times I make a serious prediction à la "mark my words", but... we're all going to realize sooner or later that stuff is too strong now. And that this jump was a crucial step down the path.

We're all just too happy right now to realize because basically everyone "got theirs", we all have something to be happy about. Me included, I'm exhilarated that 5A might be an actual contender again, that my time in imp TripAces/Palpaces was not wasted, that the FO miniswarm got even better, etc. But I also know that it's not healthy for the game.

10 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Change my view: This points update is almost a textbook case of power creep.

I see it less as power creep and more as a redefinition of what the baseline power level of this game is expected to be. That might just be semantics though.

I think it's mostly power creep for the efficiency-type ships and, by extension, a downturn for ace supremacy and swarms. Which, incidentally, was what a lot of people on threads like this were asking for!

(Also Dengar got good and Rey got even better, I'm not quite sure how those two fit into all this but I'm scared to find out.)

3 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

I'm exhilarated that 5A might be an actual contender again

This is actually what I'm seeing a lot of, folks excited/sad that their list is now better/worse against the meta. But what I really think is that the actual meta their list needs to survive and thrive in is a completely different animal than the one they're measuring their list against in their heads (for now).

I really think this was a game changing points adjustment on a fundamental level. For better or worse, who knows?

1 minute ago, DoubleDown11 said:

This is actually what I'm seeing a lot of, folks excited/sad that their list is now better/worse against the meta. But what I really think is that the actual meta their list needs to survive and thrive in is a completely different animal than the one they're measuring their list against in their heads (for now).

Yes, that's my underlying point. You see people happy everywhere - which makes the downfall and disappointment all the worse once the realization kicks in. But I don't want to doomsay, so I'll stop. Let the record reflect that I was concerned

17 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Bottom got massively better. Which means they picked something further up as baseline. Which IMO means power creep.

Or, they thought the topline was the baseline, and the bottom was below the curve. Not power creep if the stuff buffed was functionally unusable.

Edit: also, I think extended may just be "bad" now compared to hyperspace.

1 minute ago, DoubleDown11 said:

I really think this was a game changing points adjustment on a fundamental level. For better or worse, who knows?

Agreed. It is gonna take some shaking out before we really see what's what, but they've possibly appeased both top and bottom of the archetype ladder and ignored the middle.

You can keep your aces, you can have an extra ship, you can have a couple more tricks.... You, you get nothing, we don't even understand what you want, go away.

Ultimately, it may leave us with a less nuanced game, for those of us who spend way too much time in the builder, looking for combinations no one uses.

Knee-jerk reactions are what forums are for. This is mine.

Otherwise, I'm happy, I got other stuff now too

Given that my local group exclusively plays HS I was initially out on Empire since they lost a lot. While I'll probably still take F/O to Fort Worth, the more I think about it the more competitive Empire can be now. Vader with just FCS is fine, Mauler and Black Squadron went down in points (making them more attractive Snap Shot Carriers), there maaaaayyyyyyy be something with the generic Strikers (I'm still not holding my breath on them, but w/e), and we still have Vermeil.

As a scum player, Extended is looking like a lot of fun, Hyperspace less so.

Feels like Rebels probably got buffed the most, might just be a knee-jerk reaction.

6 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

also, I think extended may just be "bad" now compared to hyperspace.

I agree infinity.

16 minutes ago, Cerebrawl said:

As a scum player, Extended is looking like a lot of fun, Hyperspace less so.

Feels like Rebels probably got buffed the most, might just be a knee-jerk reaction.

Anti-Rebel bias? Check the FO charts for most buffs (percentage.)

Actually I like what I see for Scum Hyperspace but as usual scum architecture is hard. I don’t like the mid-range pieces as much

Just now, LagJanson said:

Anti-Rebel bias? Check the FO charts for most buffs (percentage.)

Actually I like what I see for Scum Hyperspace but as usual scum architecture is hard. I don’t like the mid-range pieces as much

5 ships, one of which is the jumpmaster. Newly buffed but still quite iffy. Scyks but no marksmanship for the autoblasters. So Boba Fenn ftw I guess?

Just now, Cerebrawl said:

5 ships, one of which is the jumpmaster. Newly buffed but still quite iffy. Scyks but no marksmanship for the autoblasters. So Boba Fenn ftw I guess?

• All factions have 5 or less ships
• Jumpmaster... agreed, 'iffy'
• Marksmanship is a worthy point for autoblaster, but probably cancerous in Hyperspace
• Fett for the win is my thought

31 minutes ago, impspy said:

Given that my local group exclusively plays HS I was initially out on Empire since they lost a lot. While I'll probably still take F/O to Fort Worth, the more I think about it the more competitive Empire can be now. Vader with just FCS is fine, Mauler and Black Squadron went down in points (making them more attractive Snap Shot Carriers), there maaaaayyyyyyy be something with the generic Strikers (I'm still not holding my breath on them, but w/e), and we still have Vermeil.

Double Deci looks pretty good honestly.

30 minutes ago, Cerebrawl said:

As a scum player, Extended is looking like a lot of fun, Hyperspace less so.

Feels like Rebels probably got buffed the most, might just be a knee-jerk reaction.

Boba might be THE hyperspace ship. Every other hyperspace faction will have to have an answer to Boba in their list. Sure scum doesn't get all their "fun" tools, but they probably have one of the most powerful pilots in Hyperspace because a lot of what preyed on Boba isn't there and he has two i6 ships to choose from to be a wingmate.

3 minutes ago, RStan said:

Boba might be THE hyperspace ship. Every other hyperspace faction will have to have an answer to Boba in their list. Sure scum doesn't get all their "fun" tools, but they probably have one of the most powerful pilots in Hyperspace because a lot of what preyed on Boba isn't there and he has two i6 ships to choose from to be a wingmate.

I don't know how you can look at the surviving Scum HS roster, look at the other factions' rosters, and think that Scum came out behind. Boba is gonna be a monster, Fangs all went down, Sycks went down, etc. I know @jagsba is gonna have a field day with cheaper Fangs...

5 minutes ago, RStan said:

Double Deci looks pretty good honestly.

Boba might be THE hyperspace ship. Every other hyperspace faction will have to have an answer to Boba in their list. Sure scum doesn't get all their "fun" tools, but they probably have one of the most powerful pilots in Hyperspace because a lot of what preyed on Boba isn't there and he has two i6 ships to choose from to be a wingmate.

1 minute ago, impspy said:

I don't know how you can look at the surviving Scum HS roster, look at the other factions' rosters, and think that Scum came out behind. Boba is gonna be a monster, Fangs all went down, Sycks went down, etc. I know @jagsba is gonna have a field day with cheaper Fangs...

Scum is going to be the least fun to be an architect in (very few interesting/powerful options) but I expect Boba-Fenn and Fenn with 3 recruits to be two of the absolute top lists in the meta.

42 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

Or, they thought the topline was the baseline, and the bottom was below the curve. Not power creep if the stuff buffed was functionally unusable.

Edit: also, I think extended may just be "bad" now compared to hyperspace.

The changes are pretty dramatic and I don't understand how anyone could compare the two formats. Extended post worlds was actually pretty ok in terms of list AND playstyle diversity (although I'll give you they didn't really solve the biggest problem of force pilots but it was still pretty good x-wing) and Hyperspace has some HUGE changes like lack of 7B (which I'm unironically excited for, despite playing a TON of Jedi I think 7B in its current form is a mistake) that could either work out awesome or be a complete dumpster fire and we won't know for another month.

Extended being "bad" is totally dependent on how good/terrible Hyperspace turns out to be.

41 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

Or, they thought the topline was the baseline, and the bottom was below the curve. Not power creep if the stuff buffed was functionally unusable.

Edit: also, I think extended may just be "bad" now compared to hyperspace.

It makes sense, they have by far the most data on topline lists since thats' what everyone plays. But... that's exactly how power creep happens. 6 months from now there will be a new topline and it will, almost certainly, be slightly better than the previous topline. If it becomes the new basis for which things should be judged and points adjusted the cycle will repeat. The TIE/ln being the baseline worked because it was unchanging, if they keep dynamically changing the measuring stick we're going to end up with a really long stick

Which is the baseline, extended or hyperspace? Is extended bad or is hyperspace good?

41 minutes ago, impspy said:

Given that my local group exclusively plays HS I was initially out on Empire since they lost a lot. While I'll probably still take F/O to Fort Worth, the more I think about it the more competitive Empire can be now. Vader with just FCS is fine, Mauler and Black Squadron went down in points (making them more attractive Snap Shot Carriers), there maaaaayyyyyyy be something with the generic Strikers (I'm still not holding my breath on them, but w/e), and we still have Vermeil.

Why generic striker when Vagabond?

1 hour ago, GreenDragoon said:

Bottom got massively better. Which means they picked something further up as baseline. Which IMO means power creep.

This is not what power creep is.

Power creep is when things better than are currently being played are released/changed. There's lots of good examples to use from card games and such, but I suspect the difference is semantics.

Basically, the people worried about power creep are unhappy because they wanted the current top of the line stuff brought down, not the bottom brought up, right?

12 minutes ago, impspy said:

I don't know how you can look at the surviving Scum HS roster, look at the other factions' rosters, and think that Scum came out behind. Boba is gonna be a monster, Fangs all went down, Sycks went down, etc. I know @jagsba is gonna have a field day with cheaper Fangs...

Boba Fenn pretty much stayed where they are while others got buffed. As for cheaper fangs, well 4 skull squadrons with fearless replacing 4 black sun assassins with crack shot, I don't think it's an upgrade. Not so sure on the effectiveness of scyks without their niche combo, though I guess Quinn Jast as a torp boat is alright.

Meanwhile Rebels can field 5 X-wings, or 4 double-tapping B-wings.

My only complaint was that they removed z95s and not the scyks from hyperspace.

My problem is mostly that I don't own enough of the new efficiency hotness ships. My body was ready for 6 TIE Interceptors but my collection was not.

1 minute ago, Brunas said:

This is not what power creep is.

Power creep is when things better than are currently being played are released/changed. There's lots of good examples to use from card games and such, but I suspect the difference is semantics.

Basically, the people worried about power creep are unhappy because they wanted the current top of the line stuff brought down, not the bottom brought up, right?

I recognize that the situation is a bit different because here things are changed and not newly released. I believe the traditional definition requires old stuff to get left behind. That doesn't happen here, so in a strict sense, yes, it's no power creep.

I think it is close enough to call it powercreep because the effect is the same: the baseline creeps upwards. Maybe more accurately the "average", even though that is of course very nebulous. So whatever that means, if everything gets better, the average ship and list gets better. And that is the same effect as for strict power creep.

"Bad" stuff makes the game better. It's why hyperspace will be the better format. Restrictions are great. High difficulties in games are interesting, godmode cheats get boring quickly.

2 minutes ago, impspy said:

a field day with cheaper Fangs...

Same team. The things that did not fit with them, now do. It's a brave new world. You could say it's Fearless.

I mean, if you don't like Fangs or Sprays, you're maybe gonna struggle, but that's a thing with every faction in HS now.

Boba Fenn looks like the strongest thing that went untouched. And it kept all its tools for the format.

For me, HS all depends on how I get on with whoever our new 1 fwd to victory overlords turn out to be. I for one, do not welcome them, but 4 Fearless Skulls might do a thing.