1 minute ago, Tlfj200 said:

the arguments feel more driven by feelings than any real math. "I don't feel like these things should hit me or be good"

I absolutely confess that my opinions on rz2s are entirely feeling that these things shouldn't be good (in their case, it's because turret)

that said, looking at the stable of "2 dice, single modded ship that nobody uses", the answer might be "people hate 2 dice ships because it takes a lot of glue to make 2 dice ship lists hold together in this meta"

1 minute ago, LagJanson said:

Five points difference between a Blue Sqdn and a Cartel Spacer seems fair, right?

god it so doesn't

I don't know how to account for stuff like autoblasters being more valuable on the margin for each additional autoblaster in the list, though

4 minutes ago, LagJanson said:

RZ2 compared to M3A. Seems a good comparison, right? Five points difference between a Blue Sqdn and a Cartel Spacer seems fair, right?

I don't think any comparison to something that sees play literally never are good. M3As are obviously unplayable - everything by comparison seems broken.

6 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

You know what I find interesting? How much hate there seems to be for two attack die ships in this thread.

Again, not actually claiming any of them are necessarily fine points-wise, but man... the arguments feel more driven by feelings than any real math. "I don't feel like these things should hit me or be good"

This is the weirdest villainy arc i've ever seen. What did 2 die ships do to all of your families? The most played 2 die ship is the 5th most played pilot - trade federation drone. Next in line is Finn, who isn't there to roll two dice, followed by the Gold Squadron Trooper in 12th, then Tallie and effectively they fall off a cliff after that.

1 minute ago, GreenDragoon said:

Why?

Entirely personal preference, not a balance thing.

"put all your cheap generics in a box and joust things" = boring.

"pay 4 points and have most of the benefit of box jousting but actually playing the game" = significantly more interesting

9 minutes ago, LagJanson said:

RZ2 compared to M3A. Seems a good comparison, right? Five points difference between a Blue Sqdn and a Cartel Spacer seems fair, right?

Epsilon is 26. Identical stats and actions, different upgrade bar. Epsilon might be one of the best generics in the game. I don't know if the cartel spacer is actually bad.

2 minutes ago, svelok said:

I don't know how to account for stuff like autoblasters being more valuable on the margin for each additional autoblaster in the list, though

That's a tough one. A single autoblaster problem is only worth a couple of points. Toss four of them into the list and it's not so funny any more.

2 minutes ago, Brunas said:

I don't think any comparison to something that sees play literally never are good. M3As are obviously unplayable - everything by comparison seems broken.

Krayt denial to save Keller's reputation.

2 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Epsilon is 26. Identical stats and actions, different upgrade bar. Epsilon might be one of the best generics in the game. I don't know if the cartel spacer is actually bad.

That depends on what you mean by "best". By most reasonable definitions of best, I don't think I can agree that the epsilon is one of the best generics in the game. It seems generally better than most two die generics which are already demonstrably bad, isn't widely played, and when it is played has very middling results.

I'm hesitant to even put any weight into the performance because there's so little information - it's 99% "not enough information", it's just the 1% isn't interesting enough to even raise an eyebrow.

1 minute ago, LagJanson said:

That's a tough one. A single autoblaster problem is only worth a couple of points. Toss four of them into the list and it's not so funny any more.

Krayt denial to save Keller's reputation.

I missed something - did he lose to a scyk?

6 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Epsilon is 26. Identical stats and actions, different upgrade bar. Epsilon might be one of the best generics in the game. I don't know if the cartel spacer is actually bad.

Epsilon is pretty solid. Cartel Spacers aren't bad but hard to justify unless you're doing something janky with them.

I have to pay 38 points for an I1 RZ2 blocker with reliable red dice and a prayer on greens.

(BTW, at half points, that's the cost of a season four 19pt. Vulture.)

Feels okay until I'm across from 7 I3 Seperatist Drones with Glitterstim.

Oh yeah, and they cost less than a 23 pt. Academy TIE.

So I guess I should just fly them at 33 points with nothing?

Or just Greer.

*mentally rips-up his Blue Recruit pilot card*

I feel like I'm losing my mind. Am I still having fever dreams?

...can anyone link me a list that isn't a joke with a cartel spacer?

...can someone link me a list that supports the idea that the epsilon squadron cadet is one of the best generics in the game?

1 minute ago, Brunas said:

I missed something - did he lose to a scyk?

Slightly. At GenCon. On stream with Gold Squadron. With your face appearing about mid match to peek in and wave at the camera.

C'mon, I gotta take these shots when I can. It's not like I get a lot of opportunity to do so.

Just now, LagJanson said:

Slightly. At GenCon. On stream with Gold Squadron. With your face appearing about mid match to peek in and wave at the camera.

C'mon, I gotta take these shots when I can. It's not like I get a lot of opportunity to do so.

ABSOLUTELY DESTROYED

@Benofficial MY ANCESTORS ARE SMILING AT ME, CAN YOU SAY THE SAME SCYK-LOSER?

Some video game blogger/journalist type (Justin McElroy?...someone like that) has a quote which stuck with me (but not enough to remember who said it). I think it was in response to people railing against their review scores in relation to their review scores of other games that complainer(s) felt was an injustice.

Love loving things.

I don't understand why there has to be so much negativity. Don't like thing X but love thing Y? Figure out and talk about how to beat thing X with thing Y! Can't? Then...don't? But keep playing thing Y because it feels a lot better to love thing Y than to hate thing X, yeah?

(I know people aren't necessarily hating on anything, and I hope people get the gist)

Also, A-Wing matchups are pretty silly. They're pretty much trash against any real list that isn't aethersprites/aces.

http://advancedtargeting.computer/pilot.html?pilot=tallissanlintra

1 minute ago, Brunas said:

That depends on what you mean by "best". By most reasonable definitions of best, I don't think I can agree that the epsilon is one of the best generics in the game. It seems generally better than most two die generics which are already demonstrably bad, isn't widely played, and when it is played has very middling results.

I'm hesitant to even put any weight into the performance because there's so little information - it's 99% "not enough information", it's just the 1% isn't interesting enough to even raise an eyebrow.

SOTL made the case here:

http://stayontheleader.blogspot.com/2019/12/rule-32-enjoy-little-things.html

I just asked him about the M3A, and he thinks there might be three possible reasons why it sees less play: 1. 2pts of 26 or 28 is still relevant, 2. it's probably better than we think, 3. and imo the most important one, there is a lot of competition with seevor at 30, quads at 32, Zs at 24 or escape craft at 26. FO does not have that competition.

1 minute ago, GreenDragoon said:

I just asked him about the M3A, and he thinks there might be three possible reasons why it sees less play: 1. 2pts of 26 or 28 is still relevant, 2. it's probably better than we think, 3. and imo the most important one, there is a lot of competition with seevor at 30, quads at 32, Zs at 24 or escape craft at 26. FO does not have that competition.

Totally agree on this.

3 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

SOTL made the case here:

http://stayontheleader.blogspot.com/2019/12/rule-32-enjoy-little-things.html

I just asked him about the M3A, and he thinks there might be three possible reasons why it sees less play: 1. 2pts of 26 or 28 is still relevant, 2. it's probably better than we think, 3. and imo the most important one, there is a lot of competition with seevor at 30, quads at 32, Zs at 24 or escape craft at 26. FO does not have that competition.

I really, really caution against anaylsis of ships like this... actually, i'm tired of typing that. @punkUser can do it if he cares.

Yes, epsilons are hard to kill, relative to their points. Unfortunately, dying slowly isn't a winning strategy in the game. Epislons also have some of the lowest damage output in the game per point spent, if you want to use metrics like that.

Of course 2 points is still relevant for the scyk - that's just under 10% of the base price of the ship! It's like saying "well, if falcons were 7 points cheaper they might be better". Seevor is unique, so definitely isn't stopping any scyk swarms from seeing play. For Zs and escape craft - yes, I agree, these ships that are more efficient/better that are still not seeing play are a very good indicator that the scyk is even further from playable.

9 minutes ago, Brunas said:

They're pretty much trash against any real list that isn't aethersprites/aces.

ok nevermind, rz2s are

5 minutes ago, Brunas said:

Also, A-Wing matchups are pretty silly. They're pretty much trash against any real list that isn't aethersprites/aces.

http://advancedtargeting.computer/pilot.html?pilot=tallissanlintra

Yup. Every time I consider putting 5A back on the table, I do a match-up check and bail.

On the whole "Love loving things" tip, I LOVE Jedi. They're so squarely my preferred playstyle, it's like they were created specifically for me. But, until recently, I haven't played them very much because they've drawn so much ire since release. I purposefully refused to embrace something I loved because it was hated by others. I'm dumb.

Just now, gennataos said:

Yup. Every time I consider putting 5A back on the table, I do a match-up check and bail.

On the whole "Love loving things" tip, I LOVE Jedi. They're so squarely my preferred playstyle, it's like they were created specifically for me. But, until recently, I haven't played them very much because they've drawn so much ire since release. I purposefully refused to embrace something I loved because it was hated by others. I'm dumb.

I've been waiting for republic as a faction daydreaming since I started playing the game. After a week of aethersprites and seeing the same "I don't want to play anymore" in my opponent's eyes as first edition palp aces (for different reasons, but same checked out expressions), I refuse to participate in that.

19 minutes ago, LagJanson said:

Epsilon is pretty solid. Cartel Spacers aren't bad but hard to justify unless you're doing something janky with them.

10 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

SOTL made the case here:

http://stayontheleader.blogspot.com/2019/12/rule-32-enjoy-little-things.html

I just asked him about the M3A, and he thinks there might be three possible reasons why it sees less play: 1. 2pts of 26 or 28 is still relevant, 2. it's probably better than we think, 3. and imo the most important one, there is a lot of competition with seevor at 30, quads at 32, Zs at 24 or escape craft at 26. FO does not have that competition.

I think there's a lot of stuff which isn't so much "bad," but rather

1. marginally worse than something else which is OK
2. so there's no reason to fly it
3. so the folks who do fly it tend to be less-informed players
4. who probably make a few more mistakes on the table
5. which brings down the overall performance of the ships
6. which brings us back to #1

Example: I don't think Luke is that much worse than Obi-Wan, but why bother flying Luke if he's even *a little* worse.

1 minute ago, Brunas said:

I've been waiting for republic as a faction daydreaming since I started playing the game. After a week of aethersprites and seeing the same "I don't want to play anymore" in my opponent's eyes as first edition palp aces (for different reasons, but same checked out expressions), I refuse to participate in that.

N1 seems fair and fun (despite the gloriously unfun looking pilot abilities...)

I've been flying Anakin a lot and smacking people with bad TPM quotes until they threaten to hit me. I'm waiting for another interesting ship to fill out my list components though, I'm not super in on the ARC despite it's clearly useful role.

35 minutes ago, Brunas said:

I don't think any comparison to something that sees play literally never are good. M3As are obviously unplayable - everything by comparison seems broken.

This is the weirdest villainy arc i've ever seen. What did 2 die ships do to all of your families? The most played 2 die ship is the 5th most played pilot - trade federation drone. Next in line is Finn, who isn't there to roll two dice, followed by the Gold Squadron Trooper in 12th, then Tallie and effectively they fall off a cliff after that.

Everything changed when the “I never run out of calculate tokens “ swarm attacked.

Just now, FlyingAnchors said:

Everything changed when the “I never run out of calculate tokens “ swarm attacked.

7 minutes ago, Brunas said:

I've been waiting for republic as a faction daydreaming since I started playing the game. After a week of aethersprites and seeing the same "I don't want to play anymore" in my opponent's eyes as first edition palp aces (for different reasons, but same checked out expressions), I refuse to participate in that.

Real talk, what changed for you in 2.0? I know you played (defined by everyone) broken stuff in 1.0, but seemingly to prove a point, not necessarily to win. I've not noticed you playing (defined by some) broken stuff that much in 2.0. Do you feel others are proving the point for you? Are you tired of playing that game?

9 minutes ago, gennataos said:

Real talk, what changed for you in 2.0? I know you played (defined by everyone) broken stuff in 1.0, but seemingly to prove a point, not necessarily to win. I've not noticed you playing (defined by some) broken stuff that much in 2.0. Do you feel others are proving the point for you? Are you tired of playing that game?

It's hard to say, it was a bit of a slow transformation. Breaking things was fun in first edition, and the captive audience (who was usually skeptical to start with) usually made it fun/funny.

Now, things are fair enough that breaking everyone's toys and ruining X random people's tournament experience to get things changed isn't really necessary anymore. There's points changes to fix problems as they come up, so I don't really have to set things into horrible dumpster fires to try to get errata made which is nice.

So the only motivation to "do well" otherwise has been prizes, but since I just want the FO faction stuff and that's always just participation anyways, I've mostly been free to just do silly stuff.