I'll "clear this up" on GSP on Tuesday, but that final turn of shooting was the game. Braylen and Jake were in no position to do anything about Sun Fac at all afterwards. I would've tried further if I got half on Sun Fac, but still expecting to lose. ALSO, there was a weather warning for a snow storm that was crossing right through Alex Smittle, Doug Howe and other drives home for people going West of Indy. I wasn't about to attempt a severely losing battle when people need to make it home safe. From what I heard, everyone made it home safe, which I value a lot more than winning that game anyway.

Also, my list is not Rebel "Beef" at all. It's pure modified firepower without secondary weapon lock restrictions and Cassian empowering Braylen's movement. I give credit to Dion on this one...Rebel Shotgun.

9 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

optics

Why restrict all the other small base forward arcs access to optics just because two turrets with extremely good time on target use it?

18 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

Why restrict all the other small base forward arcs access to optics just because two turrets with extremely good time on target use it?

Because the only* other users are Kylo, Finn and the Omega FO. Without the epsilon, they together account for 2/3 of all uses. With the omega, it's 74%. All the others either don't care for the single point change, or don't matter enough.

Kylo and Finn could definitely pay a point more for this upgrade, that would be a net-good change imo because it improves the game by slightly nerfing 2/3 of its users, at the cost of reduced FO use. And honestly, the fanatical optics combo is more card game and just waits to turn into something cancerous.

(edit: yes, I used those numbers from your image for the 2/3 and 3/4 numbers)

* of course not actual only users. But it starts to get low number territory. Backdraft is maybe notable, as is scorch/zeta. Blackout and Recoil... eh, not to me. Adding all up gives 588. RZ2s+Kylo+Finn is 378, adding Omega is 433. Adding backdraft, scorch and zeta goes up to 502 at 85%.

18 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

Why restrict all the other small base forward arcs access to optics just because two turrets with extremely good time on target use it?

A very fair point but I do agree with GD, the Heroic + Optic combo is some rich gravy for 5A.

Makes it a weird list to balance contextually. 5x that upgrade combo pushes the value of it beyond the mean.

But I don't really think 5A is too strong or too weak as it stands. Certain meta staples give it a bit of rough time. Might sit nicely on the curve, with the balancing elsewhere.

I've witnessed, and experienced to a degree, the unfunness of their seemingly endless good options and the ire they can inspire. But having gone up against it a fair bit now, and also tried it once, very badly, it's a lot harder to fly than it seems and strong positional counterplay can turn a game against them very quickly.

Seems fine.

How I think we should look at it:

588 total. The rest (minus top10) adds to 107. So 481 in the top10. From those 10 ships, Awings are 56%. If you add Finn and say "resistance", it's 65%. If you add Kylo and say "problematic ships", it's 357(74%). That doesn't include the remaining RZ2s outside of the top10.

These 357 ships are 61% of the total use (588). But seriously, the one to five uses on ships like Ello, Rivas or Muse are hardly any indicator. Or rather, the lack of higher number tells us that people either didn't try, or didn't try in recorded games. Which is a meaningful distinction. I don't know what cutoff you are comfortable with.

But I retain my point: the main users of Optics are either problematic ships, or Awings (or both...). Scorch, Backdraft, Zeta and Omega are ships I am willing to sacrifice*. Especially because of the combination with fanatical, which is still the best faction talent. By far.

*and I say that having started to dabble in FO. There are some very strong 5 ship lists!

Here's a question: If generic A-Wings went down and Optics went up, would we see non-Optics generic A-Wings? If Crack/Heroic Greens would see play after a 1-ish point reduction, then it might be worth it. If the answer is no, I don't see any point to shifting some of the cost away from the chassis onto the upgrade.

My gut says the issue with Optics isn't Optics but the ships. Rear arcs on rather mobile ships are good. Finn might be too cheap. Kylo is probably better off without it (46.35% win rate with Optics, but an overall 52.49% win rate for Kylo).

15 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

If generic A-Wings went down and Optics went up, would we see non-Optics generic A-Wings?

I believe so. I think I showed what we can expect as collateral damage, so it might be worth a try. But the overarching thought is that FFG and players should not just treat a ship in a certain way, but instead the pilots. For example, 4 or 5 out of 9 Jedi are fine. There is no need to somehow fix Barris when Obiwan is performing too well. And hopefully we'll collectively do that better when January comes around. When "vultures" and "jedi" need an increase, it's possible that the story is slightly more complicated.

15 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

My gut says the issue with Optics isn't Optics but the ships. Rear arcs on rather mobile ships are good.

That's where I disagree. RZ2s are good because they have virtually no variation in their dice. Heroic + focus guarantees at least 1 evade for defense, and the infamous 86% for 2hits on offense with heroic+optics+focus. That's the issue. Eventually the ace will blank, and then it will eat 1-2 damage. And this "eventually" will happen more often when 5 ships shoot at it. Same but worse for high health ships. There's a 48% chance to dish out 10 damage for the 5 attacks. Every other game it will happen. The max possible damage. That is crazy!

As I said, the reason 5A was so good was time on target combined with low dice variation. The sheer volume of 2hit attacks is what makes them so annoying. And as mentioned earlier, the RZ2s are either high initiative or carry optics.

I feel like minimal adjustments are needed to everything else until FFG gets actual data on a 199-200 pt Trip Ace timeline that has never existed.

24 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

588 total. The rest (minus top10) adds to 107. So 481 in the top10. From those 10 ships, Awings are 56%. If you add Finn and say "resistance", it's 65%. If you add Kylo and say "problematic ships", it's 357(74%).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFoC3TR5rzI

Are two attack dice with good mods an issue in an enviroment with pilots with force tokens or calculates at disposal?

The spam is strong but needs good flying. Is not so easy mantain five arcs against the same target when the ships are running away...

I think an increase to crackshot is more appealing and opens more options.

4 minutes ago, S4ul0 said:

I think an increase to crackshot is more appealing and opens more options.

2 minutes ago, S4ul0 said:

Are two attack dice with good mods an issue in an enviroment with pilots with force tokens or calculates at disposal?

It's not primarily the 2attack ships that have to change then.

But in this case it kinda is, as long as "resistance awings should go up up up!!" is a widespread opinion. And it's not wrong, imo just more complicated in that an AO (+heroics?) increase might be an alternative idea.

13 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

That's where I disagree. RZ2s are good because they have virtually no variation in their dice. Heroic + focus guarantees at least 1 evade for defense, and the infamous 86% for 2hits on offense with heroic+optics+focus. That's the issue. Eventually the ace will blank, and then it will eat 1-2 damage. And this "eventually" will happen more often when 5 ships shoot at it. Same but worse for high health ships. There's a 48% chance to dish out 10 damage for the 5 attacks. Every other game it will happen. The max possible damage. That is crazy!

As I said, the reason 5A was so good was time on target combined with low dice variation. The sheer volume of 2hit attacks is what makes them so annoying. And as mentioned earlier, the RZ2s are either high initiative or carry optics.

Flip side is that spam generic First Order ships (both FO and SF, usually with a bit of something else like Kylo or QD or Avenger sprinkled in) are surprisingly decent. These versions typically don't bring Optics and are still kinda OK. But generic TIE/sf are a point cheaper than equivalent A-Wings, two points if presuming in Heroic. Hrm. Not entirely sure where I'm going with this...

Anyhow...

Overall, Optics pricing reminds me a lot like Juke. There are some ships where it's quite strong, and some ships where it's fair (Optics is mathematically decent on a T-70, but doesn't really see play). Juke was a lot worse when it wasn't great, but as much as possible, I'd prefer to keep upgrades which are mostly fair on most ships at fair prices, and tinker instead with the ship pricing. I don't mind an absurd Juke price, because Juke was a massive trap card at 4 points and it'd be far too tempting to take it on some ship where it'd be quite bad. But Optics has potential to be fair on most ships.

2 minutes ago, S4ul0 said:

Are two attack dice with good mods an issue in an enviroment with pilots with force tokens or calculates at disposal?

Just now, GreenDragoon said:

But in this case it kinda is, as long as "resistance awings should go up up up!!" is a widespread opinion.

so basically the issue with rz2s is:

• they make the costs of lots of other ships/generics in the 30-40 point range look like a joke
• they're a boosting turret, with blue 3 banks and 2 hards hugely offsetting red rotate actions

if you look at rz2s power level vs the current s-tier, you get a different story than when looking at rz2s power level vs the catalog, and when looking at rz2s power level vs the fundamental "front arc small base ship that sets dials" mechanic

How did a conversation swing to RZ-2 A-Wings? Or Optics? They're fine. 5A is squarely in "fine" territory, just like most (all?) Resistance lists.

5 minutes ago, svelok said:

• they're a boosting turret, with blue 3 banks and 2 hards hugely offsetting red rotate actions

Dont forget the white 1 hard turn. Oddly common on dials in general.

8 minutes ago, svelok said:

so basically the issue with rz2s is:

• they make the costs of lots of other ships/generics in the 30-40 point range look like a joke
• they're a boosting turret, with blue 3 banks and 2 hards hugely offsetting red rotate actions

if you look at rz2s power level vs the current s-tier, you get a different story than when looking at rz2s power level vs the catalog, and when looking at rz2s power level vs the fundamental "front arc small base ship that sets dials" mechanic

LOL.

8 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

Dont forget the white 1 hard turn. Oddly common on dials in general.

Used by RZ-2 A-Wings not named Greer possibly once per game, if at all.

Most of the people posting here are students of the game, but I don't buy for a minute you guys aren't just tumbling down a bad faith argument path because something offends your preferred view of the game and how it should be played.

6 minutes ago, gennataos said:

Used by RZ-2 A-Wings not named Greer possibly once per game, if at all.

Most of the people posting here are students of the game, but I don't buy for a minute you guys aren't just tumbling down a bad faith argument path because something offends your preferred view of the game and how it should be played.

No one is saying RZ2As have to go up in cost again besides maybe Greer.

Just having a discussion about the ship is all.

Rest of of my opinions on this are a page or so back.

17 minutes ago, gennataos said:

Used by RZ-2 A-Wings not named Greer possibly once per game, if at all.

Most of the people posting here are students of the game, but I don't buy for a minute you guys aren't just tumbling down a bad faith argument path because something offends your preferred view of the game and how it should be played.

this, basically:

15 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

No one is saying RZ2As have to go up in cost again besides maybe Greer.

Just having a discussion about the ship is all.

it's not that rz2s are busted, it's that (philosophically) it's not clear 5xrz2 is a list that's good for the health of the game; and (contextually) rz2s can't be 33 points while rz1s are 30 and planetary sentinels are 34 if there's to be any illusion of balanced point costs among generics (which could be resolved in either direction)

Just now, svelok said:

it's that (philosophically) it's not clear 5xrz2 is a list that's good for the health of the game

YOU ARE DEAD* TO ME

*not actually dead

You know what I find interesting? How much hate there seems to be for two attack die ships in this thread.

Again, not actually claiming any of them are necessarily fine points-wise, but man... the arguments feel more driven by feelings than any real math. "I don't feel like these things should hit me or be good"

RZ2 compared to M3A. Seems a good comparison, right? Five points difference between a Blue Sqdn and a Cartel Spacer seems fair, right?

5 hours ago, Sunitsa said:

I think this thread overrates RZ2, it's Bartosz that might make them look better than they are

Bartosz makes everything look better than it would on it's own

1 hour ago, GreenDragoon said:

RZ2s without optics and heroic are relatively rare:

Greer had 105/135 with optics (78%) and 128/135 heroic (95%). Tallie at i5 is more obvious to skip optics (87/179, 49%) because she has troubles spending the token so early, as does Lulo (14/81). Zari is at 43/59 (73%), greens at 7/9, blues at 37/45 (82%).

"X is rare without heroic" is a very good argument for humans being irrational, and probably little else. Regardless, the pattern that appears is that optics is better at lower initiatives (which makes some intuitive sense).

Optics is basically howlrunner except the points are on the individual ships instead of one big magnet. If we get a vote, I want optics type effects to be cheap, not howlrunner-effects.

5 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

You know what I find interesting? How much hate there seems to be for two attack die ships in this thread.

That's what got me started, and I tried to make the link to vultures several times. 2attack ships with accuracy corrector on turrets is a different beast. No way to change "on turrets" though...

1 minute ago, Brunas said:

If we get a vote, I want optics type effects to be cheap, not howlrunner-effects.

Why?