2 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

@RStan Same Team.

u cAnT jUsT cOnCeDe! fItE 4 mY aMuSeMeNt! aNy gIvEn sUnDaY!

20 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

u cAnT jUsT cOnCeDe! fItE 4 mY aMuSeMeNt! aNy gIvEn sUnDaY!

yOU CaN't just CONceDE lIKE thaT, iT'S DiSREspectfuL To alL thE pEopLe wHo coULDN'T MakE iT to THE FInAl taBLe

I tRyhaRdEd ThE boTTom TABles aND didn'T GET WhERE yOu are

if YOU doN'T wAnt To BE TheRe DoN'T PLay THE GAmE so I cAn wiN INSteAD

If you want to spend time playing with your friends and family, stay home. Other people paid good money for a chance at the game you're choosing not to play. You don't get to **** on them by being lazy.

Because this is pathetic. What kind of moron plays competitive events, and then as soon as it gets to what is supposed to be the most difficult part ******* out?

I've been wargaming for 12 years in 4 different systems. I have never seen or heard of this in any other game. If you suggested this in 40k or the old Fantasy battles or even in SW Armada, you would not be laughed at by your opponent but most assuredly the community would destroy you for it forever.

I feel like I'm missing something here... what are you talking about?

Since the original post may have been deleted, I’m assuming it’s in reference to the concession on GSP stream in the finals. Dude was down to 2 health 1 shield Jake on a rock and full Braylen vs full Sun Fac and 2-3 droids, with Sun in the better position.

6 minutes ago, Sunitsa said:

I feel like I'm missing something here... what are you talking about?

I'm quoting random copypasta-worthy stuff from the fly🅱️ock facebook page from forever ago

@RStan just conceded an unwinnable final match on Gold Squadron stream, with two of his ships still on the table

Misread context.

Rewind.

I've used Obi's ability a fair bit. Couple of times a game, on average.

Very nice icing indeed.

0pt Brilliant Evasion is not bad either.

6 hours ago, clanofwolves said:

Obi is sick.

what does sick mean tho???

1 minute ago, jagsba said:

what does sick mean tho???

I'm more amazed that he made final table with Jake Cassian Jan Braylen when we all knew that rebels as faction and rebel beef* in particular are dead**...

e: not even Leia. All rebel lists need leia or they fail. HWKs are unplayable because the title is too expensive. And so on

*it's not even real beef at 25HP total

**dead as in bad***

***bad as in actually bad, conventional meaning of bad, unplayable, not worthy of anyone's time

16 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

**dead as in bad***

***bad as in actually bad, conventional meaning of bad, unplayable, not worthy of anyone's time

No u

1 minute ago, Tlfj200 said:

No u

Who hurt you?

Because it definitely wasn't a rebel list, they are not capable to hurt anyone... Heyooo!

28 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Because it definitely wasn't a rebel list, they are not capable to hurt anyone... Heyooo!

Hey, we've got, uhhhhhh...

picks card from deck of mediocre options

Sub-par Selfless jousting lists!

Hey @Boom Owl, I wanted to ask you why you think RZ2s still need a points increase?

They are already close to being costed out of the game right now. Metawing has a 32% percentile in wave 5, and ATC shows them at around 50% winrate. Pinkbrainmatter has them at 44.7% for 7 large curated extended events. Only extended matters by now anyway.

So is it due to principle (turret and boost) or is there more to it?

1 hour ago, GreenDragoon said:

Hey @Boom Owl, I wanted to ask you why you think RZ2s still need a points increase?

They are already close to being costed out of the game right now. Metawing has a 32% percentile in wave 5, and ATC shows them at around 50% winrate. Pinkbrainmatter has them at 44.7% for 7 large curated extended events. Only extended matters by now anyway.

So is it due to principle (turret and boost) or is there more to it?

To be honest I dont know if they need a point increase and my opinion doesnt matter is the most honest answer I can offer?

After that here is some unnecessary ramblings...

• Greer is the only one that I am pretty sure is still to low. Maybe Talli?
• More of RZ2As "might" be deserving of a point increase depending on whether or not FFG thinks current small base forward arc only mid/low init costs are generally already correct
• I am very curious to see how quickly the Fireball besides the one that slams at i5 is ignored in favor of generic RZ2As or the 20ish pt Pods/Fireballs on release.
• Same thoughts apply to how the Zeta/Omega SFs compare to ever FO besides the Epsilon Cadets.
• There is very little reason to bring a 30-40 pt FO instead of an equivalent or cheaper SF. This might just be an FO cost problem and not a SF cost problem. Or maybe its just an aces problem.
• The only thing I know for sure is Aces are undercosted and if you have to K-turn without mods your probably snowflaking a bit.
• RZ2A and SF costs make alot of forward arc generic or mid init named ship costs look really weird/ possibly wrong.
• That doesnt mean RZ2A and SF costs are wrong it just confuses me?
• I am definitely biased against most AOE mechanics and probably always will be. Open to 360 turrets if we continue seeing Aces like the nantex or FTC jedi.
• FFG seems to like undercosting hyper mobile high init aces and overcosting low/mid init forward arc ships which makes linked boosty AOE more justified I guess.
• If Undercosted Aces timeline is a permanent one I still prefer quantity of ships as a power creep solution instead of linked turrets

TLDR: I have no idea how any of this works and how anything should be costed but you asked so I typed a bunch of words.

Thanks

When considering price changes for RZ2s then it's almost exclusively about them in non-5A lists, right? 5A is currently very weak, and I don't see what upgrades in a 5-10pt range (assuming -1 to -2 pts) would improve the list not just to be viable again, let alone to be a meta staple. It would allow to include Lulo, but not much else. In fact, I don't know how well Lulo would do right now even if he had not changed points at all! And no clue how to change costs to help the 5A list but not to make single A additions to lists too good.

I wonder about a reduction on RZ2s and increase of Advanced Optics. It's an upgrade mainly used by RZ2s, Kylo and Finn with about 2/3 of all. Similarly, I'm still convinced that heroic on 5As is the only problematic use of the card. The reason 5A was so good was time on target combined with low dice variation against opponents that had less acess to mods. In a way, 5A was ahead of its time. There's not much to be done about the first, but the second depends on upgrades, (and the third is how the game developped). The involved upgrades are not really important for other lists. That seems to be a recurring theme in the game: +1 here, -1 there; and upgrades limited to few ships priced with those ships in mind. I'm just glad I'm not FFG and in charge of this...

11 hours ago, MasterShake2 said:

I mean, it's not unique to composure. Do you think 1.0 C3P0 was intended to be put on a 1 AGL ship for guaranteed evades by guessing 0? In Warmachine Mk2 there was a once per game feat where a character could take 1-5 damage and the whole army got bonus ARM and STR equal to the damage...how many times do you think players didn't go for 5?

Fair enough. I just kinda think Composure is among the biggest offenders in 2e. I recall describing putting Composure on a Reaper once, and someone specifically asking is there was some sort of trick they didn't know about.

11 hours ago, MasterShake2 said:

Getting the correct language, decisions (and timing windows in the case of escape pod finn) can be remarkably difficult especially if your playtest groups approaches the rules from designer's intent vs. best way to play it.

Also fair. Hence the massive rules change to failed actions pretty much immediately to prevent Composure BS, with making red actions fail with stress. The clarification that you *must* lock something if able and can't choose to fail also might have been related, since FFG only wanted E-Wings to have linked Lock and not linked Focus.

//

I thought of a different wording for Composure: copy the language from the SLAM rule. "If you fail your one action during the Perform Action step, assign 1 Focus token to your ship." Maybe it's not perfect, but at first glance, it accomplishes what seems to be the goal. Can't be chained. Can't be done off of actions from other effects. But it's basic failed action insurance.

11 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

It's interesting how many points Republic and Imp had, imo the two best factions right now.

Obi dropped 7 points at last points update, which nobody understood why one would do that, knowing what that does to balance.

5 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

(...) And no clue how to change costs to help the 5A list (...)

🤔 Why do you think they need help in the first place?

5A are super solid list, it made top8 at Worlds and nothing changed since then.

Not everything needs to be Seerswarm/Force users level powerful

Besides, they will get new RZ2 pilots in the Pilot pack soon which will expand options.

1 hour ago, Oldpara said:

🤔 Why do you think they need help in the first place?

5A are super solid list, it made top8 at Worlds and nothing changed since then.

Not everything needs to be Seerswarm/Force users level powerful

Besides, they will get new RZ2 pilots in the Pilot pack soon which will expand options.

That's Ken. I don't know who else could get that far. But if you look at the mortals playing them, the list does very badlymediocre at best by now:

9 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

They are already close to being costed out of the game right now. Metawing has a 32% percentile in wave 5, and ATC shows them at around 50% winrate. Pinkbrainmatter has them at 44.7% for 7 large curated extended events. Only extended matters by now anyway.

I think this thread overrates RZ2, it's Bartosz that might make them look better than they are

2 hours ago, Oldpara said:

Not everything needs to be Seerswarm/Force users level powerful

Pretty much this.

Let us hope that the top tier is accurately adjusted downwards, current almost decent lists become actually decent as a result and no NEW ULTIMATE MURDER LIST is created with unnecessary buffs.

I mean, seems a reasonable hope, it's not like any of the current top dogs are there because they were actually not that bad before their points were dropped, eh? EH?

1 hour ago, Sunitsa said:

I think this thread overrates RZ2, it's Bartosz that might make them look better than they are

If a ship performs well by a skilled player, it needs practice to reach a competitive level, not a discount to make it more efficient and probably broken.

I think the RZ-2 can remain untouched. Resistance has other issues.

2 hours ago, Cuz05 said:

Pretty much this.

Let us hope that the top tier is accurately adjusted downwards, current almost decent lists become actually decent as a result and no NEW ULTIMATE MURDER LIST is created with unnecessary buffs.

I mean, seems a reasonable hope, it's not like any of the current top dogs are there because they were actually not that bad before their points were dropped, eh? EH?

I fully agree, that would be by far the best way.

I started at "why increase RZ2?". I just think that it's not necessary to move them up or down in total, and that maybe splitting cost into AO/heroic and base cost would be a worthwhile idea. RZ2s without optics and heroic are relatively rare:

Greer had 105/135 with optics (78%) and 128/135 heroic (95%). Tallie at i5 is more obvious to skip optics (87/179, 49%) because she has troubles spending the token so early, as does Lulo (14/81). Zari is at 43/59 (73%), greens at 7/9, blues at 37/45 (82%).
To me, that alone shows a very clear divide and I'd love to see i1-3 or even including Greer go down a bit, but to compensate that with optics or heroic increasing by the same amount or even split 1-1.
Of course I had made the same point back in July, that treating them all collectively as "A-wings need a nerf" is too simple, and I make the same point again.

The same happens to other ships. Nobody would argue that interceptors need to go up because of Soontir, or x1 because of Vader (clearly ignoring the 74% winrate of Ved Foslo...), but somehow that happens for awings before, and now for vultures.

Something something nuance.