1 minute ago, Bucknife said:

I think 5X probably crosses the line against the 2-Ship archetype.

I think Ghost+1 and Falcon lists or Double-Ace lists become... possibly Meme status? ...in a 5X meta.

5Yions got tested and slapped.

5 Cartels ... We'll see if they survive the nerf-bat. Obviously, Aces cut through a 5 Cartel meta at Worlds, so they seem fine?

So, follow-up question:

on the 5X vs 2ship archetype: is it because it's 5x 3-die primaries? or the potential boost? the hp? what's the thing that makes it over the the line, to say 5x cartel mauraders, which currently exists?

(this isn't meant to combative - i do mean this as an honest question - I've never even considered this before, and my gut reaction is 5X isn't good enough, but I also admit this is the first time I've really entertained the idea, so I like walking through it).

1 hour ago, catachanninja said:

There will always be somethings that come out more or less efficient, if the end game is still fun, it doesn't really matter.

Only thing I would add to this is that it helps to think of power levels and point balance in terms of Game Mechanics instead of ship to ship or faction to faction comparisons.

Stuff Like This:

• Force Charges
• Stress-less Reposition
• Fully Execute
• Additional Arcs
• Boost + Lock + Passive Mods ( Or Equivalents )
• Boost
• Pre-Movement Dial Adjustments
• Dial Peaking
• Ensnare

I am more interested in FFG avoiding physically building to many mechanics into any one card or ship/pilot. Leads to sad correct point totals that eventually price fun characters/ships out of the game without power creep around it to stay at buildable costs.

A year+ into 2.0 I think the argument could be made that Ship Abilities might have worked better as equipable upgrade types. Not 100% sure either, maybe ship abilities make things easier to cost since they dont vary a million ways? I have enjoyed the illusion of upgrade light lists, some of the stuff on the pilot cards still looks like a burden. Might open up pricing and design options for a ton of kinda sad ship designs:

• Nantex
• Athersprites
• Phantoms
• RZ2As
• Defenders
• Jumpmasters
• YT2400

There correct costs for this stuff obviously but it either reduces build options to the point that it feels bad or opens up list options that just dump all over "regular" mechanics.

2 hours ago, Bucknife said:

I think 5X probably crosses the line against the 2-Ship archetype.

I think Ghost+1 and Falcon lists or Double-Ace lists become... possibly Meme status? ...in a 5X meta.

Oh no..... Not two ship lists.....

Quote

5Yions got tested and slapped.

Double tapping control =\= 5 x-wing

51 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

Step 6: Live Free, Dont Join. run what you want man

Sage advice, right there.

What's best in life?

Screaming at the top of your lungs during Aces High, having the poor suckers in the main event swiss look over with furrowed brows for having disturbed their serious space ship game.

27 minutes ago, jagsba said:

Oh no..... Not two ship lists.....

Double tapping control =\= 5 x-wing

You're my favorite person, Jag.

Some players actually do like to play the game with two ships.

And yes, I agree about 5 control Ys.

The funny thing is that, I guess the devs felt like gunner Ys with Ion should be a viable option - we want to see them as a rebel piece.

But when the choice is between NPE SPAM and overpriced/niche, I guess the correct call is, "up, up, up".

__________________EDIT

Slow clap for 1200

30 minutes ago, Bucknife said:

I think 5X probably crosses the line against the 2-Ship archetype.

I think Ghost+1 and Falcon lists or Double-Ace lists become... possibly Meme status? ...in a 5X meta.

If I get a vote, I value x-wings being good over 2 ship lists.

Unironic the game is called X-Wing?

1 minute ago, Brunas said:

If I get a vote, I value x-wings being good over 2 ship lists.

Unironic the game is called X-Wing?

1) i'm still struggling to see how they are too good against 2 ship lists (versus the fact other swarms/5-ship 3-die primary lists currently exists)

2) Even if they were, wouldn't the 5X list also need to be good enough versus the rest to overcome the meta "triangle"? Like, isn't it "okay" for the 2-ship list to be "weak" against 5X, as long as 5X has sufficient weaknesses elsewhere?

I don't think 5X even matters/makes sense as a theoretical list, because the actual list (like torkil lists) will be a core of X-Wings plus some other something. Lando+3X would fit, for example.

That aside, 4X+Zeb fits anyways, if 5*3 is really the entire dream. Do people believe in 4XZeb?

"A-Tier" or better 2 ships since 2.0 Started:

• Super Ani Obi
• Super Vader + Defender
• Inert Han+
• Dash Rorak
• Han Gunner Boba+
• Super Kylo Snokeson

Missing any?

23 minutes ago, Brunas said:

If I get a vote, I value x-wings being good over 2 ship lists.

Unironic the game is called X-Wing?

Okay; fair.

Pop-quiz:

How would 5 T65s do against Seperatists Sear Swarm?

Somebody test it!!!

13 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

"A-Tier" or better 2 ships since 2.0 Started:

• Super Ani Obi
• Super Vader + Defender
• Inert Han+
• Dash Rorak
• Han Gunner Boba+
• Super Kylo Snokeson

Missing any?

Maybe double Infiltrators, but that was pretty sporadic in terms of both appearance and performance.

4 minutes ago, Bucknife said:

Okay; fair.

Pop-quiz:

How would 5 T65s do against Seperatists Sear Swarm?

Somebody test it!!!

It's a lot of shots and HP for the X's, but single mod only is hard to power through networked and Struts can allow droids to mod and get quality shots while X's are being forced to T-Roll or K-Turn and just hard roll. If the droids are naked, it's close, if they have shells, struts or both, I think they take it more often than not.

33 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

1) i'm still struggling to see how they are too good against 2 ship lists (versus the fact other swarms/5-ship 3-die primary lists currently exists)

2) Even if they were, wouldn't the 5X list also need to be good enough versus the rest to overcome the meta "triangle"? Like, isn't it "okay" for the 2-ship list to be "weak" against 5X, as long as 5X has sufficient weaknesses elsewhere?

Great points.

Instinctively, I don't think 5X is significantly better than 5 Cartels, except in the hands of the most experienced players.

And if our world champions want to take up 5X if it becomes legal and win worlds with it... I don't think anyone would complain - and I don't think it'd be a landslide.

On paper, they have the TORP slot, ASTRO slot, and free FOILS over the Cartel's MISSILE and 2x MOD+ILLICIT.

If Cartels are supposed to be modded to the gills, but the devs can't drop mod prices without breaking everything else, then their base cost needs to be low.

___

4 T65s with Torps died with the first update, and I was surprised they didn't lower chassis cost equal to Torp tax.

But that's all residual 1.0 balance, so I understand why they didn't do that right away.

___

Just because 4 naked Resistance Bombers wouldn't "break the game", doesn't mean it would be good for the game...

___

In other words, @Tlfj200, I have no idea.

23 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

"A-Tier" or better 2 ships since 2.0 Started:

• Super Ani Obi
• Super Vader + Defender
• Inert Han+
• Dash Rorak
• Han Gunner Boba+
• Super Kylo Snokeson

Missing any?

MUH REY/POE!

And Guri/Fenn (but more for realz)

3 minutes ago, gennataos said:

MUH REY/POE!

And Guri/Fenn (but more for realz)

I think the debatable part here is, "A-tier".

Mark, you're amazing with Rey+Poe.

Most of X-Wing is not. 😕

I feel like that pushes Rey+Poe down to "B-tier"...

But then as soon as you or someone else wins a System Open with it we'll all change our tune and join the fun train.

Did I miss some obscure European smash fest where Rey+Poe made a mark?

Non-rechargeable BB8 charges are still one of my favorite things. Afterburner charges to.

Would be cool if Adv Sensors only had 2 charges!

1 minute ago, Bucknife said:

Mark, you're amazing with Rey+Poe.

Not true. Daniel Taylor actually did pretty good with Han/Poe at a couple things (like the one I linked). I've done nothing with Rey/Poe aside from middling local testing.

I think a lot of current 2-ship lists being A-Tier are debatable. They're razors edge and require high skill and reps to make them perform at an A-Tier level. I'm, like, c-tier.

2 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

Non-rechargeable BB8 charges are still one of my favorite things. Afterburner charges to.

Would be cool if Adv Sensors only had 2 charges!

They can always go the precog route, releasing the “correct” card later at a lower price and hiking up the OG.

7 minutes ago, gennataos said:

Not true. Daniel Taylor actually did pretty good with Han/Poe at a couple things (like the one I linked). I've done nothing with Rey/Poe aside from middling local testing.

I think a lot of current 2-ship lists being A-Tier are debatable. They're razors edge and require high skill and reps to make them perform at an A-Tier level. I'm, like, c-tier.

Also, match-up better. Dear lord, match-ups. Good/great match-ups are the unsung heroes of (some) tournament runs.

48 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

"A-Tier" or better 2 ships since 2.0 Started:

• Super Ani Obi
• Super Vader + Defender
• Inert Han+
• Dash Rorak
• Han Gunner Boba+
• Super Kylo Snokeson

Missing any?

Super Kylo + QD (although why not trim it down to include Rivas?) >> Super Kylo Snokeson. Heck, even Brolencers or Instinctive Aim + Optics + Munitions to the Gills Kylo + QD are better than Kylo Snokeson.

Fite me.

20 minutes ago, gennataos said:

25 minutes ago, Bucknife said:

I think a lot of current 2-ship lists being A-Tier are debatable. They're razors edge and require high skill and reps to make them perform at an A-Tier level.

REPS:

The most expensive upgrade in X-Wing.

32 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

Non-rechargeable BB8 charges are still one of my favorite things. Afterburner charges to.

Would be cool if Adv Sensors only had 2 charges!

OR, put Adv Sensors, Precog and SNR in the system phase instead of before activation...

STATEMENT: The System Phase is an under utilized phase in the game for mechanic triggers.

1 hour ago, Boom Owl said:

"A-Tier" or better 2 ships since 2.0 Started:

• Super Ani Obi
• Super Vader + Defender
• Inert Han+
• Dash Rorak
• Han Gunner Boba+
• Super Kylo Snokeson

Missing any?

Boba/Fenn, like 3 them made the cut at Worlds, and 1 knocked me out in round 7 sad times

4 minutes ago, wurms said:

Boba/Fenn, like 3 them made the cut at Worlds, and 1 knocked me out in round 7 sad times

Yea slave 1 is a pretty cheap way to get a 360 turret.

1 hour ago, Boom Owl said:

"A-Tier" or better 2 ships since 2.0 Started:

• Super Ani Obi
• Super Vader + Defender
• Inert Han+
• Dash Rorak
• Han Gunner Boba+
• Super Kylo Snokeson

Missing any?

RAC+thing