48 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

Not yet. What we know:

Sun Fac + 6 Won (Crack Fac + strut roger rogers) vs Jedi
Jedi "Mirror" in Top 4 before Final
Soontir AS Redline Vermiel showed up ( Thanks Duncan... )
7b Obi Broadside Autoblasterion Arc Torrent Torrent went 6-0
Trip Aces are pretty good
3-3 Cut + Tournament Win = Elite Company

I think it will be up at some point. I was there and have some basic info. This was the top 32 breakdown:

Republic: 7
Resistance: 5
First Order: 5
Imperial: 9
Rebel: 1
Scum: 1
Separatist: 4

I was one of the FO players to make the cut, but due to the change to the finals being on Sunday I wasn't able to make it so one more Imperial player was in the 32 to play.

2 hours ago, Boom Owl said:

Ensnare won St. Louis?

Nah, Vultures + 80pt support ship won :p

1 hour ago, theBitterFig said:

But that's what I'm saying. Zeta or Omega with Gunner is pretty similar in power level to a Blue or Red T-65. Maybe like 1 point difference, but pretty close.

But generic t65s are pretty terrible, are you saying gunner sf are bad too?

2 hours ago, Tlfj200 said:

But man, we also can remember seeing some clearly dial failures, rather than decisional mistakes, and that's sort of the point, right?

I member

7 minutes ago, Sunitsa said:

But generic t65s are pretty terrible, are you saying gunner sf are bad too?

They aren't good compared to Aces, that's for sure- Plo is ******* sixty-Three, obi is 66.

Double I5 Regen Jedi costs approx the same as 3 Gunner SF.

43 minutes ago, MasterShake2 said:

Nah, Vultures + 80pt support ship won :p

80pt support ship that makes you roll a statistically-insignificant number of fewer green dice.

It's fine

1 hour ago, Sunitsa said:

But generic t65s are pretty terrible, are you saying gunner sf are bad too?

Well now, that's a trickier issue.

By and large, T-65 appears to be one of the "building block" prices in the game. IIRC, there was a similar discussion onhere about two weeks ago about the TIE Fighter. Definitionally, it can't be over-priced or under-priced, since it's the benchmark. T-65--and by extension--Gunner TIE/sf kind of ought to be the benchmarks. I can see the SF being a point more--the rear arc options strike me as worth more than the boost (YMMV), plus the Evade action, plus a dial which is probably slightly better, and throw in the shield/hull ratio. Seems like that's all worth about a point.

If we take as fact the 41 point Blue T-65 being correctly priced (as FFG seems to do, by definition), the Zeta Gunner TIE/sf becomes fine, and then it's everything else that's wrong.

That's kind of what I mean by theoretically the right cost--based on theory and first principles. If those are letting us down, well now, that's a trickier issue.

26 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

Well now, that's a trickier issue.

By and large, T-65 appears to be one of the "building block" prices in the game. IIRC, there was a similar discussion onhere about two weeks ago about the TIE Fighter. Definitionally, it can't be over-priced or under-priced, since it's the benchmark. T-65--and by extension--Gunner TIE/sf kind of ought to be the benchmarks. I can see the SF being a point more--the rear arc options strike me as worth more than the boost (YMMV), plus the Evade action, plus a dial which is probably slightly better, and throw in the shield/hull ratio. Seems like that's all worth about a point.

If we take as fact the 41 point Blue T-65 being correctly priced (as FFG seems to do, by definition), the Zeta Gunner TIE/sf becomes fine, and then it's everything else that's wrong.

That's kind of what I mean by theoretically the right cost--based on theory and first principles. If those are letting us down, well now, that's a trickier issue.

"Everything is priced wrong except from the building blocks which are priced correctly."

I mean, I guess? What is Fair 7b Jedi Ace priced at then? I think that number starts with an 8 then. It currently starts with 6, and not even a high 6. I fully support them nerfing all i5+Ships, esp. Ones that can passive mod, but will they? I'm not confident.

There's also the issue that FO doesn't have combo pieces or 'famous' pilots to prop up the FO and SF chassis: The generics might as well be good to compensate, as the alternative is "My favorite character from the movies- Miranda" type ****.

1 hour ago, Kaptin Krunch said:

They aren't good compared to Aces, that's for sure- Plo is ******* sixty-Three, obi is 66.

Double I5 Regen Jedi costs approx the same as 3 Gunner SF.

T65 are bad even compared to other generics thought... BWings are only 1 point more and they got linked barrel and are overall more tough, 2 vultures cost less, khiraxs are cheaper while being mostly the same (while also having better in faction synergies), ensnare Nantex are 44 points, resistance awings with optics are 37, should I keep going?

39 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

Well now, that's a trickier issue.

By and large, T-65 appears to be one of the "building block" prices in the game. IIRC, there was a similar discussion onhere about two weeks ago about the TIE Fighter. Definitionally, it can't be over-priced or under-priced, since it's the benchmark. T-65--and by extension--Gunner TIE/sf kind of ought to be the benchmarks. I can see the SF being a point more--the rear arc options strike me as worth more than the boost (YMMV), plus the Evade action, plus a dial which is probably slightly better, and throw in the shield/hull ratio. Seems like that's all worth about a point.

If we take as fact the 41 point Blue T-65 being correctly priced (as FFG seems to do, by definition), the Zeta Gunner TIE/sf becomes fine, and then it's everything else that's wrong.

That's kind of what I mean by theoretically the right cost--based on theory and first principles. If those are letting us down, well now, that's a trickier issue.

I don't get this argument. Are t65s a benchmark in the sense that anything similar to them is purposedly designed to be bad?

If 41 points t65 is correctly priced then at two third of the other ships are overcosted

The real victims here are:

• Named FOs
• Named Torrents
• Generic Strikers
• Generic Interceptors
• Scum Z95s

6 minutes ago, Sunitsa said:

T65 are bad even compared to other generics thought... BWings are only 1 point more and they got linked barrel and are overall more tough, 2 vultures cost less, khiraxs are cheaper while being mostly the same (while also having better in faction synergies), ensnare Nantex are 44 points, resistance awings with optics are 37, should I keep going?

I don't get this argument. Are t65s a benchmark in the sense that anything similar to them is purposedly designed to be bad?

If 41 points t65 is correctly priced then at two third of the other ships are overcosted

The B-wing is actually 41 as well- It is clearly better though.

And the T65 at least gets looked at- There are other generics that are ******* awful compared to the T-65 (Muh Black Squad Strikers!)

8 minutes ago, Sunitsa said:

T65 are bad even compared to other generics thought... BWings are only 1 point more and they got linked barrel and are overall more tough, 2 vultures cost less, khiraxs are cheaper while being mostly the same (while also having better in faction synergies), ensnare Nantex are 44 points, resistance awings with optics are 37, should I keep going?

I don't know how to tell you this H-oss, but b-wings are the same price as x wings.

Just now, Kaptin Krunch said:

The B-wing is actually 41 as well- It is clearly better though.

same team

derped a bit, but my point is still stronger

14 minutes ago, Sunitsa said:

derped a bit, but my point is still stronger

I'm pretty sure y'all are same team...

1 hour ago, Sunitsa said:

[T-65 as Benchmark]

If 41 points t65 is correctly priced then at two third of the other ships are overcosted

Three things seem to be true: {1} FFG seems to have pegged the X-Wing at the 41 point 4 vs 5 per list breakpoint and doesn't really want to change it {2} some ships are priced based on what's fair given the X-Wing price {3} many are not (almost surely more), and FFG doesn't seem willing to do radical re-calibration around that 41 point X-Wing.

So what's the problem? To me, I think #3 is (even if it represents a larger fraction of the ships), but other folks might say #1 and #2. To each their own. I think we could all agree that prices could be better. If FFG made things better in a different way than I'd prefer, I'd still be glad it was better.

1 hour ago, Sunitsa said:

T65 are bad even compared to other generics thought... BWings are only 1 point more and they got linked barrel and are overall more tough, 2 vultures cost less, khiraxs are cheaper while being mostly the same (while also having better in faction synergies), ensnare Nantex are 44 points, resistance awings with optics are 37, should I keep going?

B-Wing vs X-Wing seem close enough to me to let folks make up their own mind as to which style of ship they prefer. The X-Wing in unequivocally faster in dial, with access to boost, and the toughness difference is pretty small (about as much as Heroic would add). That probably does add up to being worth a point more. I think @ClassicalMoser 's results & performance based statistical model wanted to raise the price of the basic B-Wing.

Khiraxz does seem low by comparison. I think it's mostly a tossup on faction, though (Leia exists, and rebels also have some decent ships to pair with).

Vulture, Nantex, or Resistance A-Wings (or something like a Fang) are really different styles of ships. They'll struggle a lot more against some things, and excel against others. I'm getting too sleepy to really get too deep in it. I know I wasn't too worried about generic X-Wings and Y-Wings flying 5 Optics SF into it, but don't think the prices are so horribly wrong. If something is close to theoretically fair, I don't mind of folks choose to play other stuff, and don't really think FFG should heap buffs onto fair-but-rarely-used stuff.

8 hours ago, Oldpara said:

One more thing about recent FO wierdo performance in Polish Grands: I was inspired by Evan Pomerantz who went 23rd Swiss in Worlds (ended top64) playing QD +2xTIEsf + 3xTIEfo. I replaced QD with Avenger who better fits my playstyle.

So it turns out FO generics are surprisingly good, probably better than named pilots.

Congrats on your finish!

21 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

Three things seem to be true: {1} FFG seems to have pegged the X-Wing at the 41 point 4 vs 5 per list breakpoint and doesn't really want to change it {2} some ships are priced based on what's fair given the X-Wing price {3} many are not (almost surely more), and FFG doesn't seem willing to do radical re-calibration around that 41 point X-Wing.

So what's the problem? To me, I think #3 is (even if it represents a larger fraction of the ships), but other folks might say #1 and #2. To each their own. I think we could all agree that prices could be better. If FFG made things better in a different way than I'd prefer, I'd still be glad it was better.

B-Wing vs X-Wing seem close enough to me to let folks make up their own mind as to which style of ship they prefer. The X-Wing in unequivocally faster in dial, with access to boost, and the toughness difference is pretty small (about as much as Heroic would add). That probably does add up to being worth a point more. I think @ClassicalMoser 's results & performance based statistical model wanted to raise the price of the basic B-Wing.

Khiraxz does seem low by comparison. I think it's mostly a tossup on faction, though (Leia exists, and rebels also have some decent ships to pair with).

Vulture, Nantex, or Resistance A-Wings (or something like a Fang) are really different styles of ships. They'll struggle a lot more against some things, and excel against others. I'm getting too sleepy to really get too deep in it. I know I wasn't too worried about generic X-Wings and Y-Wings flying 5 Optics SF into it, but don't think the prices are so horribly wrong. If something is close to theoretically fair, I don't mind of folks choose to play other stuff, and don't really think FFG should heap buffs onto fair-but-rarely-used stuff.

Well, then they better bust out the nerfin' stick for basically every card with an orange 5 or 6 on it- ****, some 4's too. Do you know how many high-init named ships are comically undercosted compared to a 41 point t65? It's more than I think they are willing to fix.

Other examples: Duchess and Ric are both 42. If the B is a point better than an X, Ric is comically better than a B. Or how 7b Obi+7b Plo is apparently worth 3x, but they are comically better.

Both formats, timeline from released of wave 4 to now, filtered to events with >=25 players and >= 75% of lists filled.

That's 3,262 total lists across 59 events (worlds/nova duplicate events removed, but that's it for pruning). Of those, 477 are Rebels.

Blue Squadron Escort is used in 17 lists.

For context:

Wedge Antilles: 233 lists.
Braylen Stramm: 147 lists.
Arvel Crynyd: 56 lists.

Either 97% of rebel players are sleeping on T65 generics or they really just aren't good, I promise

25 minutes ago, svelok said:

Both formats, timeline from released of wave 4 to now, filtered to events with >=25 players and >= 75% of lists filled.

That's 3,262 total lists across 59 events (worlds/nova duplicate events removed, but that's it for pruning). Of those, 477 are Rebels.

Blue Squadron Escort is used in 17 lists.

For context:

Wedge Antilles: 233 lists.
Braylen Stramm: 147 lists.
Arvel Crynyd: 56 lists.

Either 97% of rebel players are sleeping on T65 generics or they really just aren't good, I promise

This is Frank Forte Erasure

8 hours ago, Tlfj200 said:

Question:

My hypothesis is the best lists in first order is closer to what @Oldpara played, which is to say larger ship count and generics. What we see is people playing 2 aces + support (basically, wannabe empire).

Is first order just wannabe empire right now?

Edit: sort of how we saw the initial resistance lists were wannabe rebel lists when resistance first dropped, except it looks like first order never move on.

Is it time to go all in?

FO 7 Generics

Counting to 200 is fun

20 minutes ago, RStan said:

Is it time to go all in?

FO 7 Generics

Counting to 200 is fun

I think I’d rather have 4 optics epsilon’s and 2 passive sensors concussion zetas?

59 minutes ago, jagsba said:

This is Frank Forte Erasure

same team

1 hour ago, Kaptin Krunch said:

Well, then they better bust out the nerfin' stick

Do you know how many high-init named ships are comically undercosted compared to a 41 point t65? It's more than I think they are willing to fix.

It's either that, or move off 41 point X-Wings. FFG has seemed unwilling to do either.

Would 5x T-65 be busted?

5× Marauder appears not to be.

Either no- drop the X. It's all fine?

Or yes- boost access is quite good?